Ειδικότητα στην Μεγάλη Βρετανία

[Alexandros Boukas]

And it still is.

[al3kmarin]

Good evening guys!

I am a brand new medical graduate who's also hoping to find his fate in the UK. i started studying thoroughly the whole topic a week ago (litterally from page 1) and i have to admit that i have found some important answears to some of my concerns. Having already completed both the ALS and ATLS course, i currently am waiting for the IELTS results to hopefully proceed with the GMC registration. I want to ask a question and i hope i wont agitate neither Alexoulis nor wicked witch ( ;p) since i believe that the following topic has not been elaborated enough ; there seems to a great discussion as to whether greek graduates should continue with a postgraduate study in the UK in order to enhance their CV (basically some people say that without a sort of research noone will make it up to ST3) . Do you think that a young graduate like me could have any chances in applying directly for a decent LAT Fy1 position or even FY2 without having a Msc or anything else in his portofolio. My only previous experience with the NHS was completing a 3 month placement at a central hospital of London last summer

The reason why im asking is that i want to become cardiologist (some day) and i know how competitive or even out of the question (as wicked witch might say) the specific specialty could be in the UK.

Please any thoughts n comments are welcome
Thank u in advance

[Alexandros Boukas]

Welcome.

yes you can apply for FY1 / FY2 jobs. My advise to everyone who wants to start career in UK especially in very competitve jobs is to start from F1 (even if they say to you that you dont need it). You do need it.

To get used to the system. To build your CV. To understand / do audits. To get to know NHS. TO pass MRCP part A (as FY1)

Having a MSc does nothing to your chances of getting a FY1/2 job in UK. It might help with your English but nothing else.

You will have time to think about higher degreed later - post FY2 and pre CMT / post CT2 and pre ST3.

so if you are keen and hard working you will never know

Good luck

[Wicked Witch]

Msc is a postgraduate degree, NOT research ie it scores on a different part of the application.

An Msc thats led to a research project that was published scores both as a 'degree' and as 'research' (maybe even as' management' depending on the type of work you've done).

Do NOT read anything dated pre-2008 (wasted effort - obsolete info).

'NHS experience' does not 'score' as such. What did you DO during those 3 months?what did you LEARN?How do you EVIDENCE this?

There's nothing wrong with having a dream, but cardiology is 4y in the future for you ....who knows what cardiology will be like then, who knows if the NHS will still be around then, who knows if greece/ + the UK will still be part of the EU...

UK training (at this point) is geared towards producing 'consultants'.

A 'consultant' is not just an independent medical expert but also one of the cogs in the UK NHS organisation. As such a 'consultant ' is a role unique within the UK NHS, not replicated in other countries. This is a fact not a statement of inferiority/superiority.

My personal opinion is that soon this will change...whether it should/would have any influence on your plans to emigrate is another matter.

'Wicked Witch' is capitalised

[Alexandros Boukas]

NHS experience counts towards your consultants. They will support you if you are good, they will give you audits. they will help you with publications.

When someone is asking how to succeed in a highly competitive specialty - talking about the "future of NHS" doesn't make sense.

I don't think the question was "how do you see the future of consultants in UK".

PS. Surgeons / interventional medics (cardiologist including) will always be independent in terms of operating.

[al3kmarin]

A 4 year path up until a NTN is not something that demotivates me .I have to admit that i am down to earth though , and since i appreciate the nomeclature of training in the UK i am not afraid or unwilling to be patient .The non-stop evaluation process with exams and interviews looks like a great challenge (at least for now that i am still passionate)

Well during those months i gained essential experience with reagrds to how the system works;I was in a univeristy hospital where i did a rotation in cardiology;basically, i had the chance to follow ward rounds, present clinical cases to consulants and observing invasive procedures .It's not that i have an evidence for all these besides a type of "certificate" that i was given at the end of my practise.It took me some time though to understand the value of an audit , and when i started collecting data, my practise was at its end so it was left unfinished :/

Anyway thank you guys for the information supplied!!! Alexoulis i am already convinced for the neccesity of starting with an FY1 (above all it's been almost 180 pages wherein this information is replicated ;p )
Wicked witch it's true that i cannot predict how things r gonna be! Just imagine that you re talking to a humble yet determined guy who is trying to collect as many information as possible from some "mentors" to proceed with his new step.

---> Is there any particular tip for noobies like us to increae our chances for being accepted in a decent FY1? Are there things that we should focus on mentioning in an application or even during an interview?

Τροποποιήθηκε 25 Ιουνίου 2015 από al3kmarin

[NorthEast]

Wot cheor canny lads an lassies. Why dyer write in English?

[Alexandros Boukas]

wey aye, man!

[Wicked Witch]

@ al3kmarin You appear fearful of the 'non-stop evaluation process with exams and interviews'.Exams are hard but not impossible. ARCPs are a matter of demonstrating 'competence' (not ' excellence ' - this is a discussion for another day...).The training scheme would expect ALL trainees to achieve a satisfactory ARCP outcome, if you are struggling it should be picked up early , and you should receive the right support to make it through. Exams and ARCPs are not a competition, ie you don't have to score more than your colleagues to make it though, you only need to be good enough.

Audit : be honest. Describe why you chose the topic,how far you got ,why you stopped, what you would have done if you had enough time (completed the cycle, presented findings etc) and ultimately what you've learned.You might not score much...but every little helps.

When asked to talk about yourself/cv :Talk about exactly what you've learned during your time in cardiology, clinical issues, how you observed the team working, what inspired you, how you fit in.

Send your old colleagues an honest thank you email(if you don't have their email call the ward/secretary) explaining what it is that they've done that impressed you in some detail and then ask if they are willing to help you with interview advice and the application process.They will most likely really appreciate the gesture (and print it for their appraisal...)

You should NOT aim to present yourself as 'humble'. You may come across as obsequious...not a good quality for a doctor.

Enthusiastic and aware of your limitations and reflective is what you should be aiming for.

I have no experience of FY, but the above should apply to all levels of training and beyond...

Τροποποιήθηκε 29 Ιουνίου 2015 από Wicked Witch

[al3kmarin]

Thank u wicked witch!
You have been tremendously helpful! Its true that to some extent the process seems overwhelming for someone who wishes to fit in eventually. Your information might seem initially fundamental or even repetitive, but it is paramount for someone who struggles to get to know with the system . i /we appreciate that

[klarinafc]

Γεια σας συνάδελφοι-συναγωνιστές, brothers in arms τέλος πάντων για τους αγγλόφωνους! Σας ευχαριστούμε για την προσφορά σας στην κοινότητα μας. Περνώντας στο προκείμενο να πω ότι εχω διαβάσει το post από τη σελ 50 και μετά αλλά Δε θυμάμαι αν παρέχεται η εξής πληροφορία: γίνεται να ξεκινήσει κάποιος εδω πχ Γεν Χ για 4 χρόνια και μετά κάνοντας CT1-2 στην Αγγλία να έχει δικαίωμα να δώσει εξετάσεις ειδικότητας στην Ελλάδα;; Έχει το ηθικό χάσμα της η ερώτηση αλλά μήπως χωρίς να εμφανιστείς overqualified εκεί μπορείς να τα καταφέρεις.. Το χάσμα άλλωστε θα γινόταν πλήρης αποκόλληση αν έλεγα να συμπληρώσεις τα 2 χρόνια με LAS. Αλλά δεν το λέω, το λέω;

[sjjggst]

Γεια σας συνάδελφοι-συναγωνιστές, brothers in arms τέλος πάντων για τους αγγλόφωνους! Σας ευχαριστούμε για την προσφορά σας στην κοινότητα μας. Περνώντας στο προκείμενο να πω ότι εχω διαβάσει το post από τη σελ 50 και μετά αλλά Δε θυμάμαι αν παρέχεται η εξής πληροφορία: γίνεται να ξεκινήσει κάποιος εδω πχ Γεν Χ για 4 χρόνια και μετά κάνοντας CT1-2 στην Αγγλία να έχει δικαίωμα να δώσει εξετάσεις ειδικότητας στην Ελλάδα;; Έχει το ηθικό χάσμα της η ερώτηση αλλά μήπως χωρίς να εμφανιστείς overqualified εκεί μπορείς να τα καταφέρεις.. Το χάσμα άλλωστε θα γινόταν πλήρης αποκόλληση αν έλεγα να συμπληρώσεις τα 2 χρόνια με LAS. Αλλά δεν το λέω, το λέω;

Συνήθως ο κόσμος κάνει το αντίστροφο από αυτό που γράφεις. Κανονικά, αυτό που αναφέρεις δεν μπορεί να εγκριθεί από το ΚΕΣΥ σαν full training, μιας και στην ουσία θα έχεις κάνει 2 φορές τα έτη του lower training σε 2 διαφορετικές χώρες και καθόλου από τα έτη του higher specialty training.

Η απάντηση είναι πως φυσιολογικά αυτό που λες δεν γίνεται, αλλά πρακτικά ποτέ δεν ξέρεις. Εδώ είναι Ελλάντα και το ΚΕΣΥ δεν φημίζεται πως ξέρει τι του γίνεται...

Τροποποιήθηκε 22 Ιουλίου 2015 από sjjggst

[Camellia Moretti]

Γεια σας συναδελφοι,

Θελω να κανω ενα attachment στην αγγλια αμεσως μετα το αγροτικο μου.μερικα νοσοκομεια με παραπεμπουν στο postgraduate center. Σε αλλα παλι δε βρισκω καμια καθοδηγηση για attachment.Πιστευετε να στελνω κατευθειαν σε consultants? Αν ναι, εχετε καποια συμβουλη για το πως ειναι καλυτερο να δομησω το mail μου? (Αν πρεπει να στελνω με τη μια motivation και cv πχ.)

Εχετε οποιαδηποτε αλλη συμβουλη για clinical attachments?

Ευχαριστω

[Alexandros Boukas]

Welcome!

What do you want to specialise in?

[Camellia Moretti]

Thanks a lot for the reply and nice to meet you all I' m seriously considering clinical oncology, although I think that a clinical attachment in any subspecialty of internal medicine would be equally helpful.

[Wicked Witch]

Attachment used to be the big thing...

These days not so much.

It doesnt score anything on the applications (you could twist it as commitment to specialty)

Its worth it for the networking opportunities.

From a consultant's perspective its a pain.

They'll need to supervise you,arrange for induction etc...you will offer them nothing in return but take up their time and they risk ending up with a lemon attache who'll sour everyone's mood and possibly lead to complaints from/to the department.

You should indeed contact the postgraduate centre.Some hospitals charge for the priviledge but at least you'll have some asurance that the process will be streamlined.

Nothing stopping you from contacting individual consultants.A kind soul might be willing to go out of their way to help you out.

Be honest in your email about what you are hoping to achieve,attach cv, be flexible on dates and give them plenty of time to arrange things.

If you manage to sort things out, make sure you complete an audit and make friends with individuals likely to be supportive in the future.

[Camellia Moretti]

Thanks a lot for the reply although not optimistic. Well I ll keep on trying. Eventually I might get a positive reply.I would appreciate any furhter advice.

[papiou]

Γεια σας συναδελφοι,

Θελω να κανω ενα attachment στην αγγλια αμεσως μετα το αγροτικο μου.μερικα νοσοκομεια με παραπεμπουν στο postgraduate center. Σε αλλα παλι δε βρισκω καμια καθοδηγηση για attachment.Πιστευετε να στελνω κατευθειαν σε consultants? Αν ναι, εχετε καποια συμβουλη για το πως ειναι καλυτερο να δομησω το mail μου? (Αν πρεπει να στελνω με τη μια motivation και cv πχ.)

Εχετε οποιαδηποτε αλλη συμβουλη για clinical attachments?

Ευχαριστω

Cameila εχοντας κανει ενα αττατσμεντ η μονη συμβουλη ειναι αυτο που προειπαν τα παιδια, συνεχισε να στελνεις βενταλιες εμαιλ μεχρι να λαβεις απαντηση. Ξανα και ξανα.

Μια φιλη παρομοιοτατη με σενα (ακτινοθ. ογκολογια ΑΧΕΠΑ 3 χρονο) εκανε (με τη μεσολαβηση της διευθυντριας της, ΑΧΕΠΑ) Clin.Att. στο Norwich οπου δουλευουν 2 Ελληνες Consultants (μετριας επιστημοσυνης αλλα προθυμοι).

καλη τυχη.

Π

[Camellia Moretti]

Σε ευχαριστω πολυ. Θα συνεχισσω να στελνω motivation letter και cv σε consultants, μηπως παρω καποια θετικη απαντηση.θα ψαξω να βρω και τους ελληνες που μου αναφερεις στο Norwick.Αν βρεις λιγο χρονο μηπως θα μπορουσες να με συμβουλεψεις ως προς το πως να δομησω το motivation letter μου ? :/
H wicked witch ανέφερε καποια στοιχεια που θα συμπληρωσω οπωσδηποτε στο ηδη υπαρχον letter που στελνω. καποια αλλη ιδεα?παιδια και παλι ευχαριστω πολυ για τις απαντησεις σας!

[sjjggst]

Καλή η ιδέα του papiou να ψάξεις πού δουλεύουν Έλληνες cons ώστε να "τρυπώσεις" ευκολότερα και να ασχοληθεί και κάποιος μαζί σου όταν με το καλό ξεκινήσεις το attachment.

[Wicked Witch]

...What is a motivation letter?!

Google the core medical training scheme in your location of choice.

Email the training program director for core trainees.

Google the royal college for your preferred specialty.Check all the divisions for greek sounding names.Email them.

If you already have GMC rego create an account with www.doctors.net and ask for some help there.

ps my replies are not meant to be optimistic.I aim to analyse the facts, as I know them.

[sjjggst]

Warning: although Dr. Mindaugas Laspoliunas may sound Greek enough by name, I bet he is not!

[Alexandros Boukas]

αντι για attachment γιατι δε ψάχνεις για κανένα LAS FY1? είναι σκληρή δουλειά, αλλά είσαι junior, έχεις γενικά καποιον απο πίσω να σε στηρίζει και επίσης θα μάθεις το σύστημα απο μέσα.

Είμαι σίγουρος θα βρεις. Καλή αρχή!

[papiou]

Από το βήμα αυτό να ευχαριστήσω
από καρδιάς την παλιομάγισσα την Wicked witch
για τις τεκμηριωμένες συμβουλές, πληροφορίες και coaching ;-) που προσφέρει.
Το μπλόγκ γράφεται χρόνια τώρα από ανθρώπους που δίνουν υστέρημα προσωπικού χρόνου και κόπου.
Τετριμμένο αλλά έιναι καλό πού και πού να κάνουμε ένα evaluation που λένε και στην Αλβιώνα.

ΧΧΧ
Π


ps. Camellia δεν νομίζω οτι το motivational letter είναι το πρόβλημα. Οβερ-

Τροποποιήθηκε 25 Αυγούστου 2015 από papiou

[Camellia Moretti]

Αγαπητε συναδελφε Alexoulis,

ευχαριστω πολυ για τη συμβουλη σου.Για την ακριβεια προσπαθω να κανω το full registration with a lisence to practise οσο πιο συντομα γινεται, για να κανω αιτησεις για FY1 LAS.
Θα συμφωνησω απολυτα με τον προλαλησαντα.Καλη συνεχεια σε ολους.