Ειδικότητα στην Μεγάλη Βρετανία

[Wicked Witch]

@deciderius:

1) Exactly right. After Med school: apply at FY2 level if Greek waiting time more than 1 year, and eager to see the world. Avoid agrotiko if possible (pointless)

Agrotiko: If cheeky apply at ST1 level at specialty of choice. Apply at FY2 level if ur serious about giving UK a shot and Greek waiting time is more than 2 years. If psych or paeds go for ST1, not FY2 (timing is more on issue in this case than experience)

2) Rejected=refused to consider me coz I did not have references from UK consultants. I was looking for a locum as an SHO-HO. It was not a matter of lack of experience or aiming too high.

At this point in time you will be looking for locums as an ST1-3 level. You and all the doctors that ended up unemployed after MMC.

Cianyde is a she

Τροποποιήθηκε 7 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από cianyde

[Evanescent_doctor]

Τελικά μονο σε εμένα φαίνεται τόσο δύσκολο το να διεκδικήσω μιά θέση στο uk; Όλα αυτά που ζητούν στις αιτήσεις τους ακόμη και για θέσεις FY1 δεν είναι λογικό να με απογοητεύουν;

Δίνω ένα παράδειγμα αίτησης για trust grade: Visit My Website

Εσείς που ίστε εκεί δηλ. είχατε τόσα courses και τόση προϋπηρεσία όση φαίνεται να ζητάνε αυτοί;;;!!!

Υ.Γ. Έχω κάνει ήδη full registration στο gmc....αλλά προφανώς ήταν μάταιο...

[Dr Lecter]

Το person specification σου λεει το τι χρειαζεσαι για καθε θεση, οχι η αιτηση.

[Cadaver]

For FY1 comptences the best idea is downloading the portfolio and trying to complete the forms to prove your Fy1 competences. That's what we are doing.. It will give you an idea of what a Uk F1 has to present if he decides to apply for a standalone F2. Remember that the competition comes mainly from the colonies (pacman etc) who are all over the place here in the UK. I would consider ALS and ATLS as necessary if you are really interested in getting a post.

Some deaneries allow full registered people in F1 posts (I'm in NW but i don't know if it is the rule). Try to look for FY1 posts that come up during the year (some will quit ).

Some NHS experience would be really helpful in your application/interview.

Keep an eye on those as you don't really know how they are advertised. My trust had an Fy1 post and employed somebody without any advertisment in BMJ! (I must have checked at least 10 times!) They will give really short notice and will employ the best candidate they get, and there won't be many uk graduates for those. I think that would be the easiest case to get in! But I wouldn't consider it very difficult to get an F2 post. I have asian colleges who are rubbish and speak rubbish english!

Why employ them and not a greek graduate? It's a matter of being in the right place (interview) at the right time!

P.S. apply for everything!

[Wicked Witch]

I‘ve been worrying about this for a long time...

Tooke report taster from the Guardian.

(from the Guardian)

“In an interview with The Observer, Tooke spelt out that Modernising Medical Careers (MMC), the five-year programme to reform postgraduate medical training, was a 'whole systems failure' involving health officials, doctors' leaders and the medical royal colleges. 'There were concerns about deprofessionalisation and alienation, a sense that the command and control approach of the NHS was really diminishing the role of the doctor,' he said. 'The situation facing the trainees was morale-sapping and damaging. They were faced with a highly complex application process which was rushed in its implementation, and then there were technical glitches which resulted in some really good candidates not getting interviews for posts. The new proposals suggest doctors should go through two stages of specialist training. About 18 months after graduating, they would do three years of more specialised work involving six different areas of medicine, and then would go through a full interview process to be finally selected for a post, en route to becoming a consultant. Tooke said that the current situation was also created by the fact that 10,000 extra doctors had come from abroad for specialist posts, which had not been allowed for in the NHS workforce plans. He added that the debacle had proven to be 'a deeply damaging episode for British medicine'.

Seems like things are about to change again. New system prolly won’t be implemented before 2009.

Preliminary report should be out tomorrow.

I should change my nick to Cassandra...it would be more appropriate me thinks.

Τροποποιήθηκε 7 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από cianyde

[arsam]

Εχει σημασια που θα παρακολουθησεις το ATLS,Ελλαδα ή UK? Τους ενδιαφερει δηλ αν θα το

παρακολουθήσεις στα Αγγλικα ή στα Ελληνικά?

Οσο αφορα το ALS ξέρει κανείς αν διοργανώνεται καπου στην Ελλαδα?

[Wicked Witch]

And here’s the gist of Tooke. Keep in mind it’s only a recommendation, and if it’s implemented it won’t be before 2009.No need to worry about it yet...but...it’s just further proof that we live in very interesting times indeed!

*Tooke review: It is the independent inquiry into MMC, headed by Prof Sir John Tooke. It applies to all specialties.

RecommendatIon 31

Under the Medical Act, Universities already have responsibility with regard to FY1. By breaking the linkage with FY2, it will be possible to guarantee an FY1 position in the new graduate’s local Foundation School subject to prevailing local selection processes. The linkage between FY1 and FY2 should cease for 2009 graduates.

RecommendatIon 32

FY1 should be reviewed to ensure that i) harmonisation with year 5 is optimised; ii) the curriculum more clearly embraces the principles of chronic disease management as well as acute care; iii) competency assessments are standardised and robust. In future, doctors in this role should be called Pre-Registration Doctors.

RecommendatIon 33

Foundation Year 2 should be abolished as it stands but incorporated as the first year of Core Specialty Training. The current commitment to FY2 GP placements should continue as part of Core Specialty Training and developed further as resources permit. Doctors in Core Specialty Training should be called Registered Doctors.

RecommendatIon 34

At the end of FY1 doctors will be selected into one of a small number of broad based specialty stems: e.g. medical disciplines, surgical disciplines, family medicine, etc. During transition, ‘run-through’ training could be made available after the first year of Core, for certain specialties and/or geographies that are less popular than others. Core Specialty Training will typically take three years and will evolve with time to encompass six six- month positions. Care will be taken during transition to ensure the curricula already agreed with PMETB are delivered and the appropriate knowledge, skills, attitudes and behaviours are acquired in an appropriately supervised environment.

RecommendatIon 35

For those doctors who do not know to which Core Specialty to commit at the end of FY1 there will be the capacity to take up to 2 years in hybrid rotations allowing experience in four main Core areas. Experience in the subsequently selected Core area will count towards the completion of Core Specialty training subject to successful competency assessment.

RecommendatIon 36

Colleges should work together with the Regulator and service to devise modularised curricula for Specialist Training to aid flexibility/transferability. They should also devise common short-listing and selection processes that have been standardised across the country to allow sharing of assessments between Deaneries. This work should be completed within two years.

RecommendatIon 40

Selection into Higher Specialist Training to the role of Specialist Registrar will be informed by the Royal Colleges working in partnership with the Regulator. The Panel proposes that in due course this will involve assessment of relevant knowledge, skills and aptitudes administered several times a year via National Assessment Centres introduced on a trial basis for highly competitive specialties in the first instance. A limited number of opportunities to repeat the National Assessment Centre tests following further experience will be determined. Candidates will apply via Postgraduate Deaneries or Graduate Schools.

Application will take place three times a year on agreed dates. Save in the most exceptional of circumstances, candidates will be restricted in the number of local programmes to which they may apply (and to the number of occasions on which they may apply).They will use a common national form with specialty specific questions and will provide their standardised assessment score/ranking along with a structured CV. This will avoid the once a year appointment system with its inherent risks to service delivery. Graduate Schools linked to the 30 UK Medical Schools would reduce the size of Units of Application and address the family-unfriendly situations that arose therefrom. Shortlisted candidates will be subject to a structured interview for final selection.

RecommendatIon 43

Successful completion of Higher Specialty Training as confirmed by assessments of knowledge, skills and behaviours will lead to a CCT. Higher specialist exams, where appropriate, administered by the Royal Colleges, may be used to test experience and broader knowledge of the specialty and allow for credentialing of subspecialty expertise gained post CCT and aid selection to consultant positions.

RecommendatIon 45

The length of training in General Practice should be extended to five years, bringing it in line with specialty training and the other developed European countries.

[Cadaver]

Μην τα πετάς ετσι απότομα κ στραβώνει το στόμα μου...

Πάνω που νόμιζα ότι θα στρώσουν τα πράματα με τα ST παίζει πάλι να βρεθώ στο μάτι του κυκλώνα..

[Wicked Witch]

Μην τα πετάς ετσι απότομα κ στραβώνει το στόμα μου...

Πάνω που νόμιζα ότι θα στρώσουν τα πράματα με τα ST παίζει πάλι να βρεθώ στο μάτι του κυκλώνα..

Tell me about it...

[skaliotis]

The Poms will always treat you like an Asian. The Asians like a European. Your kids will be bilingual chavs and you’ll have to keep tabs on when’s Divali and Eed so that your annual leave does not clash with somebody else’s favourite holiday of the year.

For God's sake Cianyde, do you really expect people who have just graduated in Grece to know what a chav is???????

άσκοπες και κουραστικές κάποιες παραθέσεις όταν είναι τεράστιες δε βοηθούν καν.

Τροποποιήθηκε 11 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από Mrs. Miniver

[Wicked Witch]

Was it really necessary to quote my entire thesis on MMC in order to complain about my use of slang? Sad how this is the one thing you chose to comment on, did you bother to READ my post?

‘Giving up on Greece so that you can do your entire training in the UK, think again coz it’s a huge gamble on many levels and frankly, once you take that step you will never go/come back. If you make it through the hoops you’ll be a UK consultant in 6-7 years time. Going back will mean that you’ll be demoting yourself to an ‘epimelith b’ the functional equivalent of an SPR-ST4.Less money, more work, less recognition. You won’t have the right circle of friends to open your own private practice…It will not be worth it. You will have left your friends and your family behind. The Poms will always treat you like an Asian. The Asians like a European. Your kids will be bilingual chavs and you’ll have to keep tabs on when’s Divali and Eed so that your annual leave does not clash with somebody else’s favourite holiday of the year. A decent house in London costs 400-500.000£.’

Chav: the lower class; uneducated and ignorant people

Divali : the Hindu festival of lights, celebrated as a religious holiday throughout India in mid-November.

Eed: Islamic holidays. The 'Eed-al-Adhaa comes after completing the "Hajj" (Pilgrimage) and the 'Eed-al -Fitr comes after the fasting in the month of Ramadaan.

Pom : a disparaging term for a British person

I am well aware that Greeks don’t know these words, and that is exactly why I used them.

I am trying to make a point.

Life here is different. People should try and think things long term.

Those of you who are thinking of training in the UK but believe my writings are hard to understand (I’m not referring to the slang) will find it very hard to communicate with patients and other doctors, not to mention pass exams and shine at interviews. This is a fact.

[skaliotis]

chav actually stands for council house and violent

Όταν απαντούμε στον ακριβώς από πάνω, δε χρειάζεται quote. Ευχαριστώ για την κατανόηση, απλά το forum γίνεται δύσχρηστο όταν υπάρχουν τεράστια quotes.

Τροποποιήθηκε 11 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από Sovereign

[Wicked Witch]

It's hardly pertinent in this forum, but your insistence on minutiae amuses me so I will oblige.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

[STAMATIS MD]

CIANYDE WROTE:

''I am well aware that Greeks don’t know these words, and that is exactly why I used them.

I am trying to make a point.

Life here is different. People should try and think things long term.

Those of you who are thinking of training in the UK but believe my writings are hard to understand (I’m not referring to the slang) will find it very hard to communicate with patients and other doctors, not to mention pass exams and shine at interviews. This is a fact.''

life here IS different.

some people can take the 'english weather' and 'english way' of life and some cannot.

does anybody complain, though, at least between ourselves- the greekmeds members training in the uk?

NOPE

i believe that all of you who managed to secure a job in the system or have worked in the NHS in the past consider yourselves lucky and have no regrets at all.

especially if the alternative is spending years and years waiting in greece

honestly can anybody really provide evidence that it is easier to find a training post in sweden, germany, italy, france, switzerland, spain these days?

and dont start again with australia/ n zealand because i am still waiting for somebody to tell me that they are working as doctors there...

usa is a different story, the only probably TRUE alternative to UK

I couldnt agree more that securing a job these days in uk is really tricky-probably impossible for certain specialties (again to avoid confusion i am talking about medical specialties only)

THIS IS A FACT

it was never hard to me though to communicate with colleagues, nurses, patients

exams are exams(there is a way around them) and interviews- well good preparation and PERSONALITY are the keys.

my advice to whoever out there wants to try coming over here is:

if you have nothing to lose (waiting time in greece is long) and you dont fancy 'laserline clinics' be prepared to spend MONEY and TIME in uk, in order to have a fighting chance securing an NHS post. again i want to be clear, there are no guarantees

success wont come easy, life experiences of quite a few greekmeds' members have proven that

however, till somebody manages to persuade me and everybody elsethat there is another country that welcomes greek doctors and 'offers' them a training opportunity worth talking about with less hassle, greekmeds' topic ' Ειδικότητα στην Μεγάλη Βρετανία' will be amongst the most popular topics in this forum

stamatis

[klme]

What do you think about Opthalmology in UK?Is it really so difficult to get a place?

[lostinterest]

Ε ναι λοιπόν είναι, όπως άλλωστε και παγκοσμίως.

Είπαμε στο UK, καλό για να γεμίζεις τρύπες και να αποκτάς εμπειρίες (προσωπική εκτίμηση πάντα).

[Wicked Witch]

Just curious…how many in here actually got an ST?

[lostinterest]

ST ξέρω τους εξής:

1. Αναισθησιολογία, κοπέλα απόφοιτος ΑΠΘ

2. Γυναικολογία, αγόρι απόφοιτος Ιρλανδίας

κάνεναν άλλο Έλληνα με ST δεν ξέρω,

ξέρω όμως πάρα πολλούς με FTSTA

[Wicked Witch]

I don’t know anyone who got an ST. who was not an SHO .

I only know one person who got an SHO post with absolutely no experience in the NHS.

There is one person in here , that I know of, who got an ST2 in Paeds.

Τροποποιήθηκε 11 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από cianyde

[ppalios]

I have tried to get an ST through the MTAS process. My specialty gave posts (both STs and FTSTAs) only in round 1. I had 12 months of experience as a trainee in Greece up to August 2007, not a single day of NHS experience, and a descent cv. I failed, of course, despite the fair score at the interviews. I realized from the feedback that my main disadvantage was the lack of NHS experience.

I have applied for an SHO post (i was lucky; someone resigned and the post became vacant), and i got it. Again, without NHS experience, and with 4 UK guys to compete. I will resign my current training post in Greece (full specialty) and start as an SHO from November the 1st. I might not be able to get ST again, but training in Greece sucks, working conditions are even worse, and, most importantly, i am not happy with my job. I will take the risk. Afterall, we only live once (except highlander's; in that case, "there can be only one").

Αξίζει κανείς να αγωνιστεί για τα όνειρά του. Πάντα υπάρχει ρίσκο, αλλά τουλάχιστον, θα έχεις να λες στα παιδιά σου ότι πάλεψες. Διότι, όπως έχω γράψει πολλές φορές σε αυτό το φόρουμ, το κύριο πρόβλημα των ειδικευομένων στην Ελλάδα δεν είναι η αναμονή, αλλά η ποιότητα της εκπαίδευσης...

[Wicked Witch]

Are you barking mad?

What SHO post? There are no SHOs any more. Do you mean staff grade or trust grade? Is the job for one year or longer? Is it recognised for training? Will you be applying at an ST1 level next year or higher?

Have you read the Tooke report? Did you look at the Gold Guide from the MMC web site? Have you looked in doctors.net? The competition ratios?

You are gambling the future of your entire medical career. If things don’t work your way you will prolly be forced to leave medicine altogether. If that’s all right with you, good luck!

Luck favors the bold!

[ppalios]

Don't worry. I am not that mad. I have read all of what you are talking about. I am not gambling.

By the way, there are still SHO posts, untill next August. Not recognized as training posts in the UK, of course.

Thanks for the interest, anyway.

[Sovereign]

cianyde, μέχρι ένα σημείο συμφωνούσα μαζί σου, αλλά ρε παιδί μου εσύ το έχεις πάρει πολύ πατριωτικά το πράγμα να τους διώξεις όλους από το Νησί! Αρκετά συνειδητοποιημένος φαίνεται ο άνθρωπος για το τι θέλει να κάνει και προφανώς για να θέλει να παρατήσει τη θέση για πλήρη ειδίκευση στην Ελλάδα, το χει σκεφτεί αρκετά.

Αυτό το " είσαι τρελός" μου το είπανε κι εμένα πολλοί όταν αποφάσισα να αφήσω τη θέση μου πίσω για ένα μονοετές συμβόλαιο research registrar με αβέβαιο μέλλον. Όμως η τύχη ευνοεί τους τολμηρούς, όπως είπες κι εσύ, γιατί και extension μου έκαναν για άλλα δύο χρόνια, και θα μου πληρώσουν το PhD και βγήκε στην Ελλάδα τροποποίηση με την οποία όποιος έχει συμβόλαιο στο εξωτερικό παίρνει παράταση διορισμού μέχρι και 3 χρόνια. Και αυτό το τελευταίο μην το ξεχνούν όσοι θέλουν να φύγουν έξω και να δοκιμάσουν την τύχη τους, γιατί τους κάνει τη ζωή πιο εύκολη και δεν χρειάζεται να χάσουν τη θέση τους.

Τροποποιήθηκε 11 Οκτωβρίου 2007 από Sovereign

[Dr Lecter]

Οι περισσοτερες πιθανοτητες για να βρει καποιος απο Ελλαδα θεση πληρους ειδικοτητας (ST) υπαρχουν στις ειδικοτητες της Παιδιατρικης, Ψυχιατρικης, Αναισθησιολογιας, Παθολογοανατομιας και κατα δευτερο λογο Γυναικολογιας. Στις υπολοιπες ειναι εξαιρετικα δυσκολο να βρει καποιος κατι για παραπανω απο 1-2 χρονια.

[lilpapaki]

I don’t know anyone who got an ST. who was not an SHO .

I only know one person who got an SHO post with absolutely no experience in the NHS.

There is one person in here , that I know of, who got an ST2 in Paeds.

ναι , μονο που η κοπελα που πηρε το st2 , ειχε και mrcpch1 και ειχε ηδη θεση αγγλια τη στιγμη της αιτησης , αρα αγγλους consultants ως referees και εμπειρια στο αγγλικο συστημα .Νομιζω δεν υπαρχει συγκριση με καποιον που τη στιγμη της αιτησης δεν ειχε τιποτα στα χερια του .Ειναι γνωστο αλλωστε : αν μπει κανεις εστω και απο μια τρυπα , τελικα βρισκει θεση .Το ζητημα ειναι να μπει .

Για τους υπολοιπους που χωρις εμπειρια πηραν τελικα καποια θεση , πιστευω οτι περα απο μια πολυ καλη αποδοση στη συνεντευξη ειχαν και αρκετη τυχη .

οσον αφορα τον ppalio , μιας και με αυτον συζητατε , πιστευω οτι με την εμπειρια που θα εχει απο αυτο το ποστο , θα εχει μια st θεση του χρονου .

καλα κανεις και ρισκαρεις φιλε μου