Ελευθεροτυπία...το τέλος ενός μύθου

[Ptca]

Arianos,

Well, your overall assessment about the Tsimas and Pretenderis opinions is YOURS and thus respected.

I beg to differ, but that is not the point of our discussion

When I mentioned internet I ALSO meant conventional media and papers

For example

I barely stand to read the ultra-liberal rubbish that the Virus writes about immigration, Cyprus etch. [Although I find his nonsense useful in EASILY finding counterarguments and exposing the gaps in the facts and reasoning of the perennially ill prepared for serious arguments Greek social liberals]

But the coverage of Greek-Turkish issues by Kyra Adam is exceptional

Although the Kathimerini people do excellent work as far as this is concerned, it is perfectly obvious that they are pro government and that they do filter their coverage

I do know that, I do expect that, I do find their coverage helpful nonetheless.

But in order to have more facts and aspects, it really helps to read people like Adam who are not pro-government.

Papahelas, as I said is very helpful too, but you need to read other people to view other aspects of the issues that he is dealing with.

I do not agree with all of Delastic’s views either, but the facts that he sometimes (!) provide are usually very interesting.

I am referring to what Joan described

I am definitely not suggesting that internet based resources are more reliable.

As you know well, conventional resources are available on line

I am just saying

Try to get as much information as you can, trust no one, question everything and apply your own sense about things-also I would think about who I am financing by actually buying a newspaper

Like your INDY view

Yeah …some unconventional stuff on there…but tons of nonsense and rubbish as well and in my opinion the level of the debate can get really low.- INDY is exceptionally useful in my opinion in teaching people to despise FANATISISM ,by offering such a grotesque display of it.

And you are wrong about that politics and history thing

Go to your bookstore [politeia ought to be good] at those sections and you will find books dealing with very contemporary issues.

Once you form a way of thinking and a frame of mind it can get very easy for you to judge a source of information, the information’s quality and integrity and the compatibility of any information or analysis with reality. Above all, you can develop the ability to perform your own analysis of events.

NI-ME

Κατά τα άλλα ο ptca έχει δίκιο,απλά να προσθέσω ότι ο Παπαχελάς και μερικοί άλλοι είναι πιο αξιόπιστοι διότι είναι εξοικειωμένοι με το εξωτερικό,μιλάνε καλά ξένες γλώσσες κτλ.

Ο άλλος που τέλειωσε το λύκειο,πήγε σε μια σχολή του κώλου (δημόσια ή ιδιωτική δεν παίζει ρόλο) κια πέρασε τις πολιτικές επιστήμες με 6 μέρες διάβασμα από φωτοτυπίες (ή με σκονάκι) κια μιλάει αγγλικά ό,τι έμαθε από το φροντιστήριο,άντε και κανά μήνα στην αγγλία,τι να σου κάνει; αποκλείεται να καταλάβει τι παίζει στον κόσμο (ή την ελλάδα,γιατί και εμείς κακοί αντιγραφείς αποτυχημένων συστημάτων που εφαρμόστηκαν έξω πριν 20 χρόνια είμαστε).Θα βολευτεί με την επικρατούσα στην χώρα μας ιδεολογική συνταγή (εθνικισμός+σοσιαλισμός+συνωμοσιολογία) κια θα τα βλέπει όλα από αυτό το πρίσμα.

Oh… the dominant ideology in Greece is

Nationalism-Socialism-Conspiracy theorism

Hmmm… that’s interesting

How come we don’t have a political system reflecting that? Is the government Nationalist Socialist Conspiracy theorist?

Is the opposition?

Is the press?

Really? Which part of the ‘press’ is ‘nationalistic’? Tele city??? What percentage of the press is that? As you say about that Fotopoulos guy, why don’t you get specific?

How come the ‘dominant ideology’ is not ‘dominating’ politics, press, financial institutions, law institutions, educational institutions?

Or is it that the elite is ‘Enlightened’??

Ok, but remember, you wrote DOMINANT?

DOMINANT does not mean the ideology of most individuals, that is PREVALENT

NOW, in a democracy, THEORETICALY the prevalent ideology is supposed to be DOMINANT

So which is it?

Is Nationalism-Socialism-Conspiracy theorism DOMINANT?

Is it prevalent?

Is it both?!

Is it none of the above?

If it is just prevalent, how come it is not DOMINANT?

Is our democracy not working? [is there a conspiracy? Do extraterrestrials impose on the country a political, educational and press elite whose ideology is not representative of most individuals?]

As far as ‘languages’ are concerned

1st

Well, those of us who do not think it is a waste of time to read history know very well…

That it was the people who ‘knew languages’, who had breathed foreign air, who where supposed to be in tune with the international developments who ADVOCATED ideologies in the past as well.

It was people like that who introduced NAZISM and COMMUNISM in their countries. At the time, they were the ones ‘in tune with the times’ .It was them who were advocating the ‘trendy ideology’.

I was them who would ‘guide the ignorant locals along the road of modernity and would reproduce the successful and productive systems tried abroad’. It was them who were claiming that great protective foreign powers stood behind their ideology and themselves, promising gains if given power, warning about dangers if not.

And they were indeed funded and honoured by countries were their ideology was dominant.

And they were vigilant

and they were militant

and most of them were true believers in their cause

and they were fanatically intolerant of the ‘less progressive’ locals ‘clinging on to ideologies of the past’

and pretty soon they became DOMINANT in many places, using intense propaganda ,internal organization, sycophancy and occasionally violence But primarily through mass persuasion

There were nazi ‘scientists’! They published studies! They assured people through ‘scientific evidence’ of their racial superiority.

The early socialist regimes where tremendously more successful economically than their democratic counterparts in Europe [i.e. Greece was a tremendous failure compared to the rapidly industrialized Balkans until the oil crisis favoured the lightly industrialized tourism orientated republic]

Propagandists like the ones I mentioned were well entitled to claim they were advocating ‘financially and scientifically contemporary ideas’.

The recent UK TV History ‘night of broken glass’ special started with the recorded voice of a German woman linked to the Nazi party, who lived through that saying ‘that was the thing ,many people had doubts after that ….BUT WHEN THE MASSES SHOUT HEIL ,WHAT CAN THE INDIVIDUAL DO?’

And yet,

These contemporary individuals with all their contemporary views were wrong.

Dead wrong!

Now that is not a problem, in a democracy you are allowed to be wrong

It’s when you are fanatic and undemocratic about advancing your views [right or wrong] that you become dangerous.

2nd

The idea that anyone who speaks a foreign language or has some foreign education {which you don’t even specify... I mean we could, very well, be talking about someone educated in the very technically advanced and economically successful people’s republic of China here} mathematically develops a specific and homogenous ideology is a moronic libertarian fairytale and I hope you are not reproducing that.

I see those that share the ideas of Papahellas and other journalists and politicians dominating the arena in Greece LOSING ELECTION AFTER ELECTION ABROAD and I see them getting a royal ass kicking in the ALIVE, ACTIVE and ongoing DEBATE about ,at least, their social views abroad.

In my opinion this is the DOMINANT ideology in Greece and it’s their control over the information network that allows them to avoid debate and preserve their dominance.

People do live in a jar in Greece

It’s just a social liberal jar.

Not ‘nationalist’, ‘socialist’, or whatever…

"παγκοσμιοποιημένη υπερεθνική ελίτ"

Ok, I don’t know who Fotopoulos is and I never read him

But I will tell you what I do read

I recently read Brezinksi’s ‘the choice: Global hegemony or Global leadership’

And Huntington’s ‘who are we’

Brezinski writes about a ‘globalized supranational elite’

And Huntington writes about ‘denationalized elites’

They don’t off course mean ‘rich’, BUT THEY DO MEAN bilingual or multilingual, educated or employed currently or in the past in the west’ and primarily in Anglo-Saxon countries [primarily in the US], globally instead of nationally conscious

Brezinski even claims that all these are orientated towards the US which they view as an ideological homeland rather than as a country and a nation of its own [concerning part of them, I agree with him]

Huntington includes the American elite in that trend [i agree with him]

They both see that that trend is towards the dissolution of the United States as a Nation state and its transformation into the centre of a global hegemony [i will not use the term empire, although I do think it applies, because at least Brezinski makes every effort to avoid it] .Brezinksi welcomes this, Huntington is concerned about this [i agree with Huntington]

And you know what?

They don’t give any names either!!!!!!!!!

So I guess I might check out Fotopoulos as well, thanks for the tip

[ho·mun·cu·li]

Κατά τα άλλα ο ptca έχει δίκιο,απλά να προσθέσω ότι ο Παπαχελάς και μερικοί άλλοι είναι πιο αξιόπιστοι

Συμφωνω σε ολα, αλλα αυτο ειναι λιγο καπως....Κανεις δεν ειναι ανεξαρτητος....δυστυχως...κ ο Παπαχελας που παρακολουθουσα με μανια με απογοητευσε.....

[Αρμεγογελαδών]

Φιλοι Ptca & Ni-me,

Πραγματικα χαιρομαι να σας διαβαζω & θαυμαζω τον εξαιρετικο χειρισμο της γλωσσας εκ μερους σας,καθως και την πρωτοτυπια των σκεψεων σας...Ωστοσο δεν παυω να διακρινω μια καπως απολυτη διατυπωση καποιων αποψεων σας...Και δεν αναφερομαι στο περιεχομενο τους,αλλα στον τροπο με τον οποιο διατυπωνετε τους αφορισμους σας...κουταμαρες λεει ο ενας οτι γραφει η ταδε εφημεριδα,αστειοτητες ο αλλος,ultra-liberal rubbish ο παραλλος και δε συμμαζευεται!Οπα ρε παιδια σιγα,αρχισαμε να κατηγορουμε τους δημοσιογραφους οτι παρεχουν views & οχι news,αλλα καταληξαμε να καταδικαζουμε συλληβδην μεσα,αρθρογραφους,στασεις του τυπου απεναντι σε γεγονοτα και ολα αυτα απο τη δικη μας point of view.Δεν αντιλεγω οτι εχετε τους λογους σας που καταληξατε σε τετοια συμπερασματα,αλλα δε παυουν να ειναι views & opinions.Ο καθενας διαβαζει και κρινει,διαφωνει η συμφωνει και,κυριως,καταδικαζει η επικροτει,αναλογα με τα πολιτικα του πιστευω,τα οποια μπορει να ειναι τοσα,οσα και οι γνωμες...

Τεσπα,εγω για αλλο λογο μπηκα εδω,πιο πεζο απο οσα πολυ ενδιαφεροντα ειπωθηκαν...Ρε μαγκες δεν απαντησαμε το εξης

Τι εφημεριδες διαβαζουν οι οπαδοι της κυβερνητικης παραταξης?Δε θα επρεπε οι φιλοκυβερνητικες να εχουν υψηλοτερη κυκλοφορια?Οχι?Γιατι?Γιατι διαχρονικα οι λεγομενες "κεντροαριστερες"(ο Θεος να τις κανει τετοιες)πουλανε περισσοτερο?Απο που ενημερωνονται οι οπαδοι της συντηρητικης παραταξης και,το κυριοτερο,ποιο φυλλο ειναι το σημειο αναφορας τους?Η ΚΑΘΗΜΕΡΙΝΗ λετε?Αντε βρειτε την καθημερινη και οχι Κυριακη...Η Τραφικ πιο πολλα πουλαει...

Λοιπον?

[Clemence]

I am just saying

Try to get as much information as you can, trust no one, question everything and apply your own sense about things-also I would think about who I am financing by actually buying a newspaper

...

Once you form a way of thinking and a frame of mind it can get very easy for you to judge a source of information, the information’s quality and integrity and the compatibility of any information or analysis with reality. Above all, you can develop the ability to perform your own analysis of events.

Με κάλυψες πλήρως

[Μπάμπης ο Σουγιάς]

Απο που ενημερωνονται οι οπαδοι της συντηρητικης παραταξης και,το κυριοτερο,ποιο φυλλο ειναι το σημειο αναφορας τους? πουλαει...

Λοιπον?

Το σημειο αναφορας των οπαδων της συντηρητικης παραταξης φιλε ariane,ειναι το διαδικτυο....Προσφερει πληρεστατη,αμεση και σφαιρικη ενημερωση Και στο κατω-κατω της γραφης,ζουμε σε μια εποχη οπου τα γεγονοτα εξελισονται με ιλιγγιωδεις ρυθμους......Θα περιμενουμε να τα μαθουμε με διαφορα φασης 24 ωρων???Ασε δε, που ολες οι Ελληνικες εφημεριδες ,το μοναδικο ποιοτικο πραγμα που εχουν να μας προσφερουν πλεον ειναι κανενα d.v.d......Εχουν παρελθει ανεπιστρεπτί,οι χρυσες μερες του γνησιου εντυπου τυπου

[Μπάμπης ο Σουγιάς]

Οι πηγες του ιντερνετ ειναι διαπιστωμενο οτι ειναι διαφορετικες απο αυτες των εφημεριδων,δηλ. πιο αντικειμενικες?

Σαφως και ειναι πιο αντικειμενικες.......Σε ελαχιστο χρονικο διαστημα μπορεις(μεσω διαφορων site,Ελληνικα και διεθνη) να εξετασεις μια ειδηση απο πολλες οπτικες γωνιες,να την "ζυγισεις " και να βγαλεις τα συμπερασματα σου!! Διοτι οπως ειπαμε και πριν...ανεξαρτητα Μ.Μ.Ε δεν υπαρχουν πια....τα πατησαν τα τρενα

[Αρμεγογελαδών]

Παντως δε νομιζω οτι μονο με ΕΡΤ1,2 ηταν καλυτερα τα πραγματα,γιατι η αντικειμενικοτητα τους ηταν ιδια με τη σημερινη,δηλ.μηδενικη.Οχι οτι τα ιδιωτικα συνεβαλαν στην αντικειμενικοτητα,αλλα τουλαχιστον προσθεσαν κατι στον πλουραλισμο αποψεων...

Οντως το ιντερνετ στην παρουσιαση ειδησεων υπερτερει,απο την αποψη οτι η ταχυτητα δεν επιτρεπει σε τοσο μεγαλο βαθμο το μαιμουδεμα-μαγειρεμα της ειδησης...Ρε σεις...δωστε καμια διευθυνση κανα καλου ελληνικου ειδησεογραφικου σαιτ να δουμε τι παιζει!!!Μια συμφορουμιτισσα ανεφερε το ATHENSVOICE.GR.Κανα αλλο?

[Μπάμπης ο Σουγιάς]

Παντως δε νομιζω οτι μονο με ΕΡΤ1,2 ηταν καλυτερα τα πραγματα,γιατι η αντικειμενικοτητα τους ηταν ιδια με τη σημερινη,δηλ.μηδενικη.Οχι οτι τα ιδιωτικα συνεβαλαν στην αντικειμενικοτητα,αλλα τουλαχιστον προσθεσαν κατι στον πλουραλισμο αποψεων...

Σαφως και δεν ηταν καλυτερα τα πραγματα,για τον λογο που ανεφερες παραπανω Γι`αυτο εξαλλου και ο κοσμος επιζητουσε την ενημερωση μεσω των εφημεριδων!!!....

[ni-me]

@ptca

Oh? the dominant ideology in Greece is

Nationalism-Socialism-Conspiracy theorism

Hmmm? that’s interesting

How come we don’t have a political system reflecting that? Is the government Nationalist Socialist Conspiracy theorist?

Is the opposition?

Is the press?

Really? Which part of the ‘press’ is ‘nationalistic’? Tele city??? What percentage of the press is that? As you say about that Fotopoulos guy, why don’t you get specific?

How come the ‘dominant ideology’ is not ‘dominating’ politics, press, financial institutions, law institutions, educational institutions?

Or is it that the elite is ‘Enlightened’??

Ok, but remember, you wrote DOMINANT?

DOMINANT does not mean the ideology of most individuals, that is PREVALENT

NOW, in a democracy, THEORETICALY the prevalent ideology is supposed to be DOMINANT

Ας γίνω specific λοιπόν.

Ορίστε ορισμένα παραδείγματα για κάθε μια από τις τρείς συνιστώσες που ανέφερα:

- Εθνικισμός:

* Δεν έχει γίνει ακόμα ο διαχωρισμός του κράτους από την εκκλησία,παρά το ότι είχαμε τόσα χρόνια σοσιαλιστική κυβέρνηση

*χειρισμός μακεδονικού

*τυφλή υποστήριξη ελλάδας στην σερβία κατά τον εμφύλιο (η κριτική κατά αυτής της στάσης τότε ήταν περιθωριακή έωςς ανύπαρκτη)

-Σοσιαλισμός

* η μεγάλη φιλελεύθερη παράταξη δεσμεύτηκε προεκλογικά να προσλάβει κάπου 5000 συμβασιούχους.(Δηλ. το κόμμα του καπιταλισμού στην ελλάδα υπόσχται προσλήψεις στο δημόσιο το 2005!!)

* ολυμπιακή: από επίσημα χείλη της μεγάλης φιλελεύθερης παράταξης ειπώθηκε ότι αν κλείσει η ολυμπιακή,όσοι απολυθούν θα μεταταχθούν στο δημόσιο !!!! (προφανώς οι έλληνες καπιταλιστές θεώρησαν οτι οι της ολυμπιακής δεν έφαγαν αρκετά από τον έλληνα φορολογούμενο)

*ακόμα συζητάμε αν πρέπει να γίνουν ιδιωτικά πανεπιστήμια στην ελλάδα

-Συνομωσιολογία

* οι αμερικάνοι σχεδιάζουν πώς να κάνουν κακό στην ελλάδα (συμπέρασμα στο οποίο καταλήγουν ένα σωρό άρθρα και λόγοι δημοσιογράφων και πολιτικών)

* Παντού βλέπουμε πράκτορες των αμερικάνων (για πόσους και πόσους έλληνες δεν έχει ειπωθεί αυτό!)

Ρίξε καιμια ματιά εδώ να δεις τι εννοώ.

As far as ‘languages’ are concerned

1st

Well, those of us who do not think it is a waste of time to read history know very well?

That it was the people who ‘knew languages’, who had breathed foreign air, who where supposed to be in tune with the international developments who ADVOCATED ideologies in the past as well.

It was people like that who introduced NAZISM and COMMUNISM in their countries. At the time, they were the ones ‘in tune with the times’ .It was them who were advocating the ‘trendy ideology’.

I was them who would ‘guide the ignorant locals along the road of modernity and would reproduce the successful and productive systems tried abroad’. It was them who were claiming that great protective foreign powers stood behind their ideology and themselves, promising gains if given power, warning about dangers if not.

And they were indeed funded and honoured by countries were their ideology was dominant.

And they were vigilant

and they were militant

and most of them were true believers in their cause

and they were fanatically intolerant of the ‘less progressive’ locals ‘clinging on to ideologies of the past’

and pretty soon they became DOMINANT in many places, using intense propaganda ,internal organization, sycophancy and occasionally violence But primarily through mass persuasion

There were nazi ‘scientists’! They published studies! They assured people through ‘scientific evidence’ of their racial superiority.

The early socialist regimes where tremendously more successful economically than their democratic counterparts in Europe [i.e. Greece was a tremendous failure compared to the rapidly industrialized Balkans until the oil crisis favoured the lightly industrialized tourism orientated republic]

Propagandists like the ones I mentioned were well entitled to claim they were advocating ‘financially and scientifically contemporary ideas’.

Έλα τώρα....λες μόνο αυτό που σε συμφέρει...

Ναι,όντως αυτοί εισήγαγαν τον κομμουνισμό,τον ναζισμό κτλ,δεν αναφέρεις όμως ότι επίσης τέτοια άτομα ήταν αυτά που εισήγαγαν στους νεοέλληνες τις ιδέες της γαλλικής επανάστασης (σε όσους τις εισήγαγαν,τέλος πάντων) και που βοήθησαν καθοριστικά στην επιτυχία.Ένας από αυτούς εξάλλου έγραψε τον εθνικό μας ύμνο...

Στην περίοδο του μεγάλου γαλλογερμανικού μίσους εξάλλου,υπήρχε μια μικρή μειοψηφία (οι ειρηνιστές) οι οποίοι ήταν εναντίον αυτής της κατάστασης.Προφανώς τις ιδέες τους,της βρήκαν "απ'έξω". (να πω εδώ ότι υπήρχε κια μια μικρή μερίδα αριστοκρατών τότε που είχε σχέσεις με την αντίπερα όχθη,σεβόταν τον πολιτισμό των άλλων,ενδεχομένως υπήρχαν και γάμοι κτλ και υποστήριζε την ειρήνη.Στην εποχή τους,αυτοι θεωρήθηκαν προδότες (και οι γάλλοι και οι γερμανοί).Σήμερα,αν δούμε πώς εξελήχθηκαν τα πράγματα,μάλλον προφήτες θα τους χαρακτηρίζαμε...)

Η ελλάδα δεν είναι μια χώρα που δημιουργεί τις εξελίξεις,αντίθετα τις ακολουθεί,συνήθως δε τελευταια και καταϊδρωμένη.

Χρειαζόμαστε λοιπόν ανθρώπους (ιδίως πολιτικούς.δημοσιογράφους και επιχειρηματίες) που να είναι εξοικοιωμένοι με το "τι παίζει" διεθνώς,ώστε να μπορέσουμε να δούμε ποια είναι η θέση μας στον κόσμο και τι μπορούμε να πετύχουμε.

Πιστέυω μάλιστα ότι ορισμένες μαξιμαλιστικές θέσεις της Ελλάδας (πχ στο μακεδονικό) οδήγησαν στις ακριβώς αντίθετες από τις αναμενόμενες εξελίξεις ακριβώς γι'αυτό : διότι δεν έχουμε κατανοήσει ούτε τι συμβαίνει γύρω μας,ούτε ποιες είναι οι δυνατότητές μας.Διάβασα πρόσφατα συνέντευξη του σαμαρά,ο οποίος έλεγε λίγο-πολύ να βάλουμε βέτο σε ενδεχόμενη ένταξη της ΦΥΡΟΜ στην ΕΕ.Του εύχομαι να είναι υπΕξ όταν θα χρειαστεί να κάνουμε κάτι τέτοιο,να δω τι θα πει τότε.....

2nd

The idea that anyone who speaks a foreign language or has some foreign education {which you don’t even specify... I mean we could, very well, be talking about someone educated in the very technically advanced and economically successful people’s republic of China here} mathematically develops a specific and homogenous ideology is a moronic libertarian fairytale and I hope you are not reproducing that.

Δεν υποστήριξα αυτό.

Ok, I don’t know who Fotopoulos is and I never read him

But I will tell you what I do read

I recently read Brezinksi’s ‘the choice: Global hegemony or Global leadership’

And Huntington’s ‘who are we’

Brezinski writes about a ‘globalized supranational elite’

And Huntington writes about ‘denationalized elites’

They don’t off course mean ‘rich’, BUT THEY DO MEAN bilingual or multilingual, educated or employed currently or in the past in the west’ and primarily in Anglo-Saxon countries [primarily in the US], globally instead of nationally conscious

Brezinski even claims that all these are orientated towards the US which they view as an ideological homeland rather than as a country and a nation of its own [concerning part of them, I agree with him]

Huntington includes the American elite in that trend [i agree with him]

They both see that that trend is towards the dissolution of the United States as a Nation state and its transformation into the centre of a global hegemony [i will not use the term empire, although I do think it applies, because at least Brezinski makes every effort to avoid it] .Brezinksi welcomes this, Huntington is concerned about this [i agree with Huntington]

Αυτό είναι μεγάλο θέμα,είναι δε ,γι'αυτό θα πω πολύ σύντομα τις απόψεις μου:

- Σίγουρα αυτοί που έχουν υψηλές θέσεις σε διάφορους κολοσσούς μιλάνε πολλές γλώσσες,κινούνται σε διεθνές επίπεδο κτλ.Αυτό γίνεται αιώνες τώρα,ακόμα και στον λαό μας (οι έλληνες μεγαλέμποροι σε Αλεξάνδρεια,Σμύρνη,Τεργέστη κτλ)

- Αυτό όμως απέχει πολύ από το να τους θεωρούμε μια ενιαία μάζα "που διοικεί τον κόσμο".Καθένας από αυτούς λειτουργεί για την πάρτη του,οι οποίες συμμαχίες γίνονται προσωρινά,επειδή έτσι συμφέρει όσους συμμετέχουν.

-Όταν λοιπόν ρωτάω γιατί δεν τους κατονομάζουν,δεν λέω να πουν είναι Γιώργος,η Μαίρη κτλ αλλά να εξηγήσουν με ποιο τρόπο "διοικούν τον κόσμο".Δηλαδή τι κάνουν; μαζεύονται κάθε χρόνο σε ένα τραπέζι και λένε πχ "Ας καταστρέψουμε τους έλληνες αφαιρώντας τους την μακεδονία" "Ας φτιάξουμε ένα σχέδιο ανάν για να καταστραφούν οι ε/κ;" και αφού αποφασίσουν αρχίζουν να σνιφάρουν όλοι μαζί κόκα,έρχονται μοντέλα (ενδεχομένως και η Βίσση,τώρα που κάνει διεθνή καρίερα) για όργια κτλ;

-Αν τώρα εννοούν ότι οι κολοσσοί αυτόι κατά καιρούς πιέζουν κυβερνήσεις για να πάρουν συγκεκριμμένες αποφάσεις,αυτό προφανώς συμβαίνει,αλλά από εκεί που ξεκινήσαμε να εξηγήσουμε "ποιος κυβερνά τον κόσμο",καταλήξαμε να καταγγέλουμε αυτό που κάνει ξέρω γω και αυτή η γκόμενα που είναι πρόεδρος του συλλόγου medics και είπε στον κακλαμάνη να μην βάλει εξετάσεις για ειδικότητα,αλλιώς τα μέλη του συλλόγου και οι θείες τους θα ψηφίσουν ΠΑΣΟΚ την επόμενη φορά.

ΑΝ πάντως αναφέρονται σε κάτι τέτοιο,ο όρος ελίτ είνια εντελώς άστοχος,γιατί σε αυτήν την περιπτώση ο καθένας λειτουργεί ανεξάρτητα και όχι όλοι μαζί ενωμένοι σαν τους γιαπωνέζους τουρίστες στην ακρόπολη.

[Ptca]

Φιλοι Ptca & Ni-me,

Πραγματικα χαιρομαι να σας διαβαζω & θαυμαζω τον εξαιρετικο χειρισμο της γλωσσας εκ μερους σας,καθως και την πρωτοτυπια των σκεψεων σας...Ωστοσο δεν παυω να διακρινω μια καπως απολυτη διατυπωση καποιων αποψεων σας...Και δεν αναφερομαι στο περιεχομενο τους,αλλα στον τροπο με τον οποιο διατυπωνετε τους αφορισμους σας...κουταμαρες λεει ο ενας οτι γραφει η ταδε εφημεριδα,αστειοτητες ο αλλος,ultra-liberal rubbish ο παραλλος και δε συμμαζευεται!Οπα ρε παιδια σιγα,αρχισαμε να κατηγορουμε τους δημοσιογραφους οτι παρεχουν views & οχι news,αλλα καταληξαμε να καταδικαζουμε συλληβδην μεσα,αρθρογραφους,στασεις του τυπου απεναντι σε γεγονοτα και ολα αυτα απο τη δικη μας point of view.Δεν αντιλεγω οτι εχετε τους λογους σας που καταληξατε σε τετοια συμπερασματα,αλλα δε παυουν να ειναι views & opinions.Ο καθενας διαβαζει και κρινει,διαφωνει η συμφωνει και,κυριως,καταδικαζει η επικροτει,αναλογα με τα πολιτικα του πιστευω,τα οποια μπορει να ειναι τοσα,οσα και οι γνωμες...

You are absolutely right

I am very glad you see it that way

I used to think in exactly the way you do [about this]

However,

Do you recognize my Avatar Guy?

There is a reason HE is there [instead of someone like Ghandi who I also admire tremendously]

I have said before in these fora

I believe that when our society edges towards an extreme, in order for it to return to moderation, some must take the opposite extreme and make the arguments, provoke the debates

…so that some sort of balance can be found, some sort of logic can prevail concerning society’s choices (which I ultimately believe ought to be somewhere in the middle)

Indeed I am intense, indeed I am judgemental

But, even the people that we talked about and many others possessing huge broadcasting power and influence in Greece …

How much room do they allow for them selves to be wrong?

How often do they admit they were wrong or acknowledge that they might be wrong?

How often are they merely content with presenting their view as what they think is right, reasonable and productive and not as the absolutely good and moral stance against the evil and immoral opposing view?

How much moderation and respect do they demonstrate to those of a different opinion?

How often do they resist the temptation to ridicule and demonize those that dare to disagree with them?

I mentioned the virus, Pandora, someritis

How moderate are they?

How respectful of a different opinion are they?

Now, I acknowledge that social liberalism taught us a lot, in our country (as I said I know a little bit about history and I am fully aware of the link that social liberalism has, even to the creation of our country)

Recently

It broadened our horizons

It provided a new reassuring and confident way to view the world and the developments in it

But it has more recently taken on an extremist, militant, irrationally fanatical [and I believe malignant for our society] form.

The intensity and the militancy of that school of thought in Greece are completely out of proportion to the social conditions and perceptions in our country.

I believe that we are risking a derailment of what I consider to be a moderate society towards extremist choices while their rhetoric rages on unchallenged.

We are also experiencing the phenomenon of ideological terrorism imposed by this dominant and politically INTOLERANT ideological elite.

So you see

‘This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They're back! There's no choice left. And I'm ready for war.’

BTW, if you haven’t already SEE THAT MOVIE!

[Αρμεγογελαδών]

Ptca,

ρε συ...δεν τον αναγνωριζω τον τυπα με την κουμπουρα στο αβαταρ σου...παντως δεν τον κοβω για ατομο που,οταν τον βλεπουν π.χ. τιποτα αμερικανοι και λοιποι στρατοκαβλοι,λες ακριβως οτι χεζονται πανω τους απ τη χαρα τους...

Απ την αλλη δε πιστευω οτι οσο πιο απολυτος ειναι κανεις στις διατυπωσεις του η οσο πιο πολυ φωναζει,τοσο πιο πειστικος γινεται.Επειδη ενας Σωμεριτης π.χ. απαξιωνει τις αλλες αποψεις,δε χρειαζεται να τον μιμηθουμε...τετοια ατομα σκαβουν μονα τους το λακκο τους,κινδυνευοντας να αποκτησουν τη σταμπα του γραφικου...

Αν καταλαβα καλα λες οτι διακρινεις καποιες ακραιες αποψεις,οι οποιες προσπαθουν να επιβληθουν στην ελληνικη κοινωνια(απο ποιους?υπαρχουν λες τετοια think tanks εντος Ελλαδας?)και ειναι ξενες απεναντι στη δημοκρατικη παραδοση της χωρας μας.Κοιτα,σε αυτο συμφωνω απολυτα αν το εθετες σε παγκοσμιο επιπεδο π.χ. οι νεοδεξιοι του Μπους,ο Μπλερ κτλ,αλλα στην Ελλαδα... Αν εννοεις τους τσαμπα-εθνικιστες-πατριδοκαπηλους,τους παπαδες και τις θεουσες κ.α.,αυτοι γελοιοποιουνται απο μονοι τους,οι παπαδες με τις μασες και τα στρινγκ,οι εθνικαρες με τις κωλοτουμπες που κανουν κοκ...Ασε που υπαρχουν σαν αντιβαρο εξισου γραφικοι αριστεροι,που λενε πχ "εξω απ την ΕΕ,ζητω η Κινα".Αν ομως εννοεις σε επιπεδο κοινωνικων μεταρρυθμισεων του τυπου ασφαλιση,αλλαγη εργασιακων σχεσεων προς οφελος των εργοδοτων,προνοια κτλ,αλλαζει το πραγμα & θα συμφωνησω απολυτα με αυτο!Και μαλιστα αυτο δεν ειναι εργο της δεξιας,που ειναι αλλωστε και μερος της ιδεολογιας της,αλλα τροφοδοτηθηκε κυριως απο τους"σοσιαλιστες" ειτε με τη σιωπηλη συγκαταβαση τους ειτε,χειροτερα,με πρωτοβουλιες τους!!

Αυτες οι τασεις ειναι εμφανεστατες σε παγκοσμια κλιμακα,ομως ,πιστευω εγω,δυσκολα θα γινουν κυριαχη ιδεολογια στην ελληνικη κοινωνια,τουλαχιστον με τα μεχρι τωρα δεδομενα.Εχει τοσες αμυνες η ελληνικη κοινωνια,που δυσκολα...και μονο τους γραφικους αριστερους-αριστεριζοντες να παρεις,που ολοι τους χλευαζουν,αλλα παντα βρισκουν βημα εκφρασης...εδω ρε ακομα και οι νεοδημοκρατες ντρεπονται να πουν οτι ειναι δεξιοι και λενε οτι ειναι κεντρωοι,τρομαρα τους...

By the way,την ταινια δεν την ξερω!Μην ειναι μονο καμια επαναστατικη του Κεν Λοουτς,γιατι δε βλεπω τετοια...τα βαριεμαι...βλεπω κανα "Εξολοθρευτη",τετοια πραγματα...

ΥΓ.Και ρε συ...παρε κανα πληκτρολογιο με ελληνικα...ενα lower της Γ Γυμνασιου εχω...

[Ptca]

@ptca

Ας γίνω specific λοιπόν.

Ορίστε ορισμένα παραδείγματα για κάθε μια από τις τρείς συνιστώσες που ανέφερα:

- Εθνικισμός:

* Δεν έχει γίνει ακόμα ο διαχωρισμός του κράτους από την εκκλησία,παρά το ότι είχαμε τόσα χρόνια σοσιαλιστική κυβέρνηση

What does this have to do with nationalism?

That is a SECULARISM issue

Man, Do I have to instruct liberals on their own ideology?

Very nationalistic regimes are or have been strictly secular

China is one!

Napoleonic France has been another

Many non nation entities have secularism issues

Like US states

A bit too trigger happy with the ‘N’ word, are we?

Let me explain this to you

1st you need a state and then you need 1 or more organized religions

And guess what! You have a secularism issue!

So not a valid point!

*χειρισμός μακεδονικού

Ok, you have carefully phrased this to avoid specifying at which phase you are referring to

But the tense you used in the post that I quoted was very specific

It was PRESENT,’IS’ [dominant]

So let’s try being more specific!

The government’s stance is that the name of that state should be a composition including the term Macedonia

The government has endorsed the name

‘Republic of Macedonia-Skopje’

Are the government, and specifically the prime minister and the foreign affairs minister, NATIONALIST and why?

Those members of the opposition and of SYN who have expressed themselves, have endorsed the country’s ‘constitutional name’ which is ‘republic of Macedonia’.

The communist party has formally endorsed the name’ republic of Macedonia’

Are they nationalist and why?

There are some political figures that have not expressed them selves. Are they Nationalist? And if yes, how exactly are they dominant?

Name 1 medium in which the majority of contributors oppose the use of the term Macedonia

Name one field [politicians, academia, journalism, business] where the most powerful and influential, or even the most numerous, oppose the use of the term Macedonia

Name 1 medium (apart, perhaps from kathimerini, which is very pro government) and one field, of the aforementioned, that EVEN FAVORED THE GOVERNMENT’S VIEW over the ‘republic of Macedonia’ solution!

*τυφλή υποστήριξη ελλάδας στην σερβία κατά τον εμφύλιο (η κριτική κατά αυτής της στάσης τότε ήταν περιθωριακή έωςς ανύπαρκτη)

Τότε

Meaning 10-15 years ago?

That ‘IS’, is a real bitch, isn’t it?

So, again not a valid point for what we are discussing

But, as I said, since this seems to be the best you can do, let’s play along

Please enlighten us

How did Greece support Serbia?

Specifically! Provide dates and actions of the Greek government on behalf of the Hellenic republic in support of the Serbian government and its war activities and efforts.

I have an idea about the Kosovo phase

Providing air space, ports, land, troops, ships and air assets for the Nato operations in Kosovo

Providing refugee relief to evicted Albanian

You take it from there

You challenge others to be specific

Be specific your self

If you are referring to the Greek press stance!

Let’s see

1st that is not the stance of ‘GREECE’ as you mentioned

The ‘stance of Greece’ is the stance of Greece as a state!

2nd Why was the Greek press stance ‘Nationalistic’?

How do you know?

Did we have national interests in Bosnia? Where our national interests on the side of the Serbs and why?

The Greek press bitterly criticizes the war in Iraq!

However, Iraq viewed from a Greek perspective, is obviously nationally beneficial!

So what happened to our ‘nationalistic press’? Why is it against our national interests?

The control over the Middle East oil resources that Israel has imposed has been beneficial overall for the western world including Greece! Why isn’t our ‘nationalistic press’ more pro-Israel?

Turkeys accession to the EU is Nationally detrimental so why is our ‘nationalistic press’ hailing it?

-Σοσιαλισμός

* η μεγάλη φιλελεύθερη παράταξη δεσμεύτηκε προεκλογικά να προσλάβει κάπου 5000 συμβασιούχους.(Δηλ. το κόμμα του καπιταλισμού στην ελλάδα υπόσχται προσλήψεις στο δημόσιο το 2005!!)

* ολυμπιακή: από επίσημα χείλη της μεγάλης φιλελεύθερης παράταξης ειπώθηκε ότι αν κλείσει η ολυμπιακή,όσοι απολυθούν θα μεταταχθούν στο δημόσιο !!!! (προφανώς οι έλληνες καπιταλιστές θεώρησαν οτι οι της ολυμπιακής δεν έφαγαν αρκετά από τον έλληνα φορολογούμενο)

OK you have a right to be confused about this one

Allow me to enlighten you on this one

You see, this is what happens when you get tangled up in foreign ideologies

Socialism does not propose ‘public employment’

Socialism proposes state services and activities [both free and commercial].they only employment that derives from it is the one directly linked to these services.

Socialism does not advocate employing someone in the public sector because he will not vote for you this or next time round.

If our GREAT LEADER had advocated more and better social services he would have advocated a socialist stance

Promising public employment to provide useless or in fact NO services is POLULISM and the ‘GREAT LIBERAL PARTY’ [in fact the conservative wing of the Greek corporate party] has never been a stranger to that, just like the ‘SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY’ [in fact the liberal wing of the Greek corporate party] who threw the money of the PUBLIC insurance schemes in the collapsing stock market to save our kick-ass PRIVATE INVESTORS and legalized the PRIVATE occupation and construction on previously PUBLIC forest land.

So next time resist your ideological itch to fire the ‘S’ word around and face the truth

If you had said that POPULISM is dominant in Greece, you would have been very right!

*ακόμα συζητάμε αν πρέπει να γίνουν ιδιωτικά πανεπιστήμια στην ελλάδα

So, socialism is also dominant in Britain …comrade

-Συνομωσιολογία

* οι αμερικάνοι σχεδιάζουν πώς να κάνουν κακό στην ελλάδα (συμπέρασμα στο οποίο καταλήγουν ένα σωρό άρθρα και λόγοι δημοσιογράφων και πολιτικών)

Ok, tell us which politicians and journalists and we will see if they are ‘dominant’

* Παντού βλέπουμε πράκτορες των αμερικάνων (για πόσους και πόσους έλληνες δεν έχει ειπωθεί αυτό!)

Ρίξε καιμια ματιά εδώ να δεις τι εννοώ.

Excuse me

Is this link misplaced?

Were you supposed to put it somewhere else?

All I see here is Papahellas saying that the US does not give a shit about the name of Skopje

Which is what I have been saying for months on this forum

What does this have to do with articles and speeches about traitors and conspiracies?

Where is that link?

Έλα τώρα....λες μόνο αυτό που σε συμφέρει...

Ναι,όντως αυτοί εισήγαγαν τον κομμουνισμό,τον ναζισμό κτλ,δεν αναφέρεις όμως ότι επίσης τέτοια άτομα ήταν αυτά που εισήγαγαν στους νεοέλληνες τις ιδέες της γαλλικής επανάστασης (σε όσους τις εισήγαγαν,τέλος πάντων) και που βοήθησαν καθοριστικά στην επιτυχία.Ένας από αυτούς εξάλλου έγραψε τον εθνικό μας ύμνο...

Yes they did, I am glad you agree

[A previous discussion had left me with the impression that you considered our revolution just ‘another nationalistic onslaught’ instigated by ‘hatred’ instead of a national quest for liberty in accordance to the ideals of the time]

So both of these are true! We now have the full picture. Great!

Στην περίοδο του μεγάλου γαλλογερμανικού μίσους εξάλλου,υπήρχε μια μικρή μειοψηφία (οι ειρηνιστές) οι οποίοι ήταν εναντίον αυτής της κατάστασης.Προφανώς τις ιδέες τους,της βρήκαν "απ'έξω". (να πω εδώ ότι υπήρχε κια μια μικρή μερίδα αριστοκρατών τότε που είχε σχέσεις με την αντίπερα όχθη,σεβόταν τον πολιτισμό των άλλων,ενδεχομένως υπήρχαν και γάμοι κτλ και υποστήριζε την ειρήνη.Στην εποχή τους,αυτοι θεωρήθηκαν προδότες (και οι γάλλοι και οι γερμανοί).Σήμερα,αν δούμε πώς εξελήχθηκαν τα πράγματα,μάλλον προφήτες θα τους χαρακτηρίζαμε...)

This part is hilarious?

Really?

The aristocrats? That’s good to know

Did they dine? Did they hunt foxes together? Don’t tell me they even had tea!

I wonder thought

How many were they compared to those filthy socialist [did i use the 's' word?]workers who held antiwar conferences and demonstrations together? Have you ever heard of Jean Jaures? The leader of the French socialist party, that had actually come in first in the previous election, who was organizing a general strike of all European workers in case of a war amidst the July 1914 crisis when assassinated.

Did your ‘aristocrats’ threaten to skip dinner, in protest, if war occurred?

Η ελλάδα δεν είναι μια χώρα που δημιουργεί τις εξελίξεις,αντίθετα τις ακολουθεί,συνήθως δε τελευταια και καταϊδρωμένη.

Χρειαζόμαστε λοιπόν ανθρώπους (ιδίως πολιτικούς.δημοσιογράφους και επιχειρηματίες) που να είναι εξοικοιωμένοι με το "τι παίζει" διεθνώς,ώστε να μπορέσουμε να δούμε ποια είναι η θέση μας στον κόσμο και τι μπορούμε να πετύχουμε.

Πιστέυω μάλιστα ότι ορισμένες μαξιμαλιστικές θέσεις της Ελλάδας (πχ στο μακεδονικό) οδήγησαν στις ακριβώς αντίθετες από τις αναμενόμενες εξελίξεις ακριβώς γι'αυτό : διότι δεν έχουμε κατανοήσει ούτε τι συμβαίνει γύρω μας,ούτε ποιες είναι οι δυνατότητές μας.Διάβασα πρόσφατα συνέντευξη του σαμαρά,ο οποίος έλεγε λίγο-πολύ να βάλουμε βέτο σε ενδεχόμενη ένταξη της ΦΥΡΟΜ στην ΕΕ.Του εύχομαι να είναι υπΕξ όταν θα χρειαστεί να κάνουμε κάτι τέτοιο,να δω τι θα πει τότε.....

Please enlighten us as to what would happen if we did?

Like you say

We need people who know

So tell us

I would suggest you put the previous link here and perhaps provide yourself with an answer

Δεν υποστήριξα αυτό.

Great, you have explained this adequately and I agree

Αυτό είναι μεγάλο θέμα,είναι δε ,γι'αυτό θα πω πολύ σύντομα τις απόψεις μου:

- Σίγουρα αυτοί που έχουν υψηλές θέσεις σε διάφορους κολοσσούς μιλάνε πολλές γλώσσες,κινούνται σε διεθνές επίπεδο κτλ.Αυτό γίνεται αιώνες τώρα,ακόμα και στον λαό μας (οι έλληνες μεγαλέμποροι σε Αλεξάνδρεια,Σμύρνη,Τεργέστη κτλ)

Ok,

Brezinski and Huntington seem to think that this phenomenon is accelerated and broadened in our time.

I agree with you

But bear in mind that it is argued by many [and I tend to agree] that the whole Globalization phenomenon-separated from its political dimention- is simply an issue of acceleration and augmentation of ancient processes anyhow.

That does not mean that a phenomenon does not exist.

- Αυτό όμως απέχει πολύ από το να τους θεωρούμε μια ενιαία μάζα "που διοικεί τον κόσμο".Καθένας από αυτούς λειτουργεί για την πάρτη του,οι οποίες συμμαχίες γίνονται προσωρινά,επειδή έτσι συμφέρει όσους συμμετέχουν.

yeah, right again

By definition, a human being can not be part of a homogenous mass

That is why that is a popular science fiction theme, the Borg and stuff…

Human beings are always individuals and they always function για την πάρτη τουs

However,You just described how individuals have been coming together and cooperating since the world begun.

Greeks do not constitute a homogenous mass

fans of a football team do not constitute a homogenous mass

but these groups do have a connection

A Global elite does ‘run the world’ by definition .it is just there! It does not need to organize it self in a homogenous mass to exist.

-Όταν λοιπόν ρωτάω γιατί δεν τους κατονομάζουν,δεν λέω να πουν είναι Γιώργος,η Μαίρη κτλ αλλά να εξηγήσουν με ποιο τρόπο "διοικούν τον κόσμο".Δηλαδή τι κάνουν; μαζεύονται κάθε χρόνο σε ένα τραπέζι και λένε πχ "Ας καταστρέψουμε τους έλληνες αφαιρώντας τους την μακεδονία" "Ας φτιάξουμε ένα σχέδιο ανάν για να καταστραφούν οι ε/κ;" και αφού αποφασίσουν αρχίζουν να σνιφάρουν όλοι μαζί κόκα,έρχονται μοντέλα (ενδεχομένως και η Βίσση,τώρα που κάνει διεθνή καρίερα) για όργια κτλ;

-Αν τώρα εννοούν ότι οι κολοσσοί αυτόι κατά καιρούς πιέζουν κυβερνήσεις για να πάρουν συγκεκριμμένες αποφάσεις,αυτό προφανώς συμβαίνει,αλλά από εκεί που ξεκινήσαμε να εξηγήσουμε "ποιος κυβερνά τον κόσμο",καταλήξαμε να καταγγέλουμε αυτό που κάνει ξέρω γω και αυτή η γκόμενα που είναι πρόεδρος του συλλόγου medics και είπε στον κακλαμάνη να μην βάλει εξετάσεις για ειδικότητα,αλλιώς τα μέλη του συλλόγου και οι θείες τους θα ψηφίσουν ΠΑΣΟΚ την επόμενη φορά.

ΑΝ πάντως αναφέρονται σε κάτι τέτοιο,ο όρος ελίτ είνια εντελώς άστοχος,γιατί σε αυτήν την περιπτώση ο καθένας λειτουργεί ανεξάρτητα και όχι όλοι μαζί ενωμένοι σαν τους γιαπωνέζους τουρίστες στην ακρόπολη.

[ni-me]

Δεν έχει γίνει ακόμα ο διαχωρισμός του κράτους από την εκκλησία,παρά το ότι είχαμε τόσα χρόνια σοσιαλιστική κυβέρνηση

What does this have to do with nationalism?

That is a SECULARISM issue

Man, Do I have to instruct liberals on their own ideology?

Very nationalistic regimes are or have been strictly secular

China is one!

Napoleonic France has been another

Many non nation entities have secularism issues

Like US states

A bit too trigger happy with the ‘N’ word, are we?

Let me explain this to you

1st you need a state and then you need 1 or more organized religions

And guess what! You have a secularism issue!

So not a valid point!

[bromptonista]

Σήμερα σημειώνω ότι είχε απίστευτο γέλιο τόσο η εφημερίδα όσο και η εκπομπή του Μάκη!!! Ναι, έχω αντίτυπο με την περίφημη "λευκή σελίδα" αντί για τα παρασκήνια με τον παπαγάλο (Φιντέλ) και τη λεζάντα "Εσύ μας άφησες νωρίς"!!!

Ε ρε κράξιμο που έπεσε...

[Medicus Chirurgus]

Ρε παιδιά διορθώστε τα quote σας.

[Ptca]

What does this have to do with nationalism?

That is a SECULARISM issue

Man, Do I have to instruct liberals on their own ideology?

Very nationalistic regimes are or have been strictly secular

China is one!

Napoleonic France has been another

Many non nation entities have secularism issues

Like US states

A bit too trigger happy with the ‘N’ word, are we?

Let me explain this to you

1st you need a state and then you need 1 or more organized religions

And guess what! You have a secularism issue!

So not a valid point!

Τα παραδείγματα με την Κίνα,γαλλία κτλ είναι άσχετα.

Ουσιαστικά δεν υπάρχει "εθνικισμός" σαν ιδεολογία.Υπάρχουν εθνικισμοί,σε κάθε χώρα έχει άλλα χαρακτηριστικά.

Στην ελλάδα σχετίζεται στενά με την εκκλησία (ενώ άλλοι εθνικισμοί όχι).Η άποψη ότι η εκκλησία είναι κράτος είνια εθνικιστική (για τον ελληνικό εθνικισμό,όχι για τον κινέζικο).Η θέση αυτή τον 19ο αιώνα ήταν πολύ σημαντική για την επανάσταση και τελικά συνέβαλε στην διαμόρφωση του νέου ελληνικού κράτους.Σήμερα,είναι απομεινάρι άλλων εποχών.

I would suggest you open every dictionary, history, sociology, politics book you can get your hands on and educate your self

About whether Nationalism is a defined globally reaching ideal or not

We have discussed this before

I had quoted Babiniotis

You had quoted ….your self …once again, about this ‘nationalisms’ theory

This is a Nation state AND it’s an Orthodox state,

With or without an official religion it will still be a Greek state.

It would be an issue of nationalism if we were discussing denationalizing the state and the constitution. If you are discussing separating church and state it is secularism vs. politicizing religion issue.

Your view about the role of religion in our national identity is long outdated

It has evolved

National identity is now linked to the Nation state, not to the church

Religious identity is linked to the church

It’s like saying that atheists and agnosticists can not be Greek, if they chose to be

We still have an orthodox part of the population and THEY ARE NOT A REMNANT OF THE PAST

They are living human beings around us NOW. Some of them believe in the importance of the link of their religion to our state!

Want to solve that?

Go ahead

Take them on

The anti-nationalism hysteria is just beating about the bush

Αναφερόμουν στην στάση της χώρας στα 90ς.

Για το ’IS’ δέχομαι ότι έχεις δίκιο,να προσθέσω όμως ότι δεν είναι τόσο ξεκάθαρα τα πράγματα όσο πας να το παρουσιάσεις.Έχουν αλλάξει κάποια πράγματα από τις αρχές των 90ς,αλλά εγώ δεν έχω καταλάβει ακριβώς τι υποστηρίζει το κάθε κόμμα σήμερα.

Αυτό οφείλεται στο ότι οι διάφορες θέσεις που εκφράζονται δεν δοκιμάστηκαν ιδιαίτερα τον τελευταίο καιρό.Όταν και αν τεθεί θέμα να μπουν τα σκόπια ως μακεδονία στην ΕΕ ή κάτι παρόμοιο,τότε να δούμε τι θα πει και τι θα κάνει ο καθένας και πόσο μακριά ή κοντά είναι ο σαμαράς των 90ς.

I don’t think that I misrepresented any aspect of the current situation

Για την σχέση ελλάδας-σερβίας στον εμφύλιο,σε παραπέμπω στο βιβλίο "Ανίερη συμμαχία"-ελλάδα σερβία.Εκεί θα βρεις ό,τι στοιχεία ζητάς και δεν γίνεται να βάλω σε ένα ποστ.

ok, i dont think i will be able to get that here,

perhaps a couple of stuff?

Και ορισμένα ονόματα,επειδή ζήτησες:

Μουλόπουλος,Μαρίνος,παπαθεμελής,γιάνναρας,κανέλλη,Χριστόδουλος,σαμαράς κ.ά.

Ok, I have never heard of this Moulopoulos guy- so I kinda doubt how powerful he is

Giannaras, I have read him a couple of times, I would appreciate a quote to his US conspiracy pieces, I dint happen to come across any

Anyhow,

4 mps [1 communist (if they were dominant, one would expect us to be out of the EU), 1 independent (if he was dominant, one would think that he would be able to find a broad based party that he would be comfortable in) and 2 ruling party MPs (none of them in the government-how come? since they are so DOMINANT I mean-)]

2 columnists [1 relatively unknown, I moderately known- that, at least to me, doesn’t seem to be advocating what you claim he is , but I could be wrong, he some times bores me ,so I do not always finish his pieces)

And a church leader (probably the only influential figure on your list albeit with 3-4 as many fanatically opposed as half-inclined to even listen to him- I point to recent polls)

The dominance is evident

You have made your point

Concerning ‘dominant figures’ in the country

I am sure that

Papathemelis comes first to everyone’s mind

Σε περίπτωση που το παραπάνω δεν σου ξέφυγε αλλά όντως το πιστεύεις,επέτρεψε μου να σου πω ότι το "only" στην δεύτερη φράση δεν είναι καθόλου only,αν ήταν έτσι δεν θα υπήρχε το οικονομικό χάσμα ευρώπης-αμερικής που υπάρχει σήμερα.

1st you mean the index chasm (China is kicking both European and US ass indexwise,BTW) not the economic chasm in genera!

europe is now biger and was richer[for its size] until the expansion-and is still very rich

2nd you need to check your facts

If you think that its the seer number of employees that is responsible for the welfare or the generally for the public sector crisis in Europe, you are completely mistaken

It’s the services and the coverages themselves, they are larger than the system can sustain –given its current structure and resource availability and allocation-

Stick to Greece if you want to keep talking about employee numbers and continue to think that you can convincingly attribute that to ‘socialism’

3rd I thought that the discussion was whether in Greece socialism is dominant,

This claim is quite different

Does this comment mean that in your opinion SOCIALISM IS DOMINANT THROUGHOUT EUROPE?

Well in that case please inform those following your line of thinking that in your opinion ‘Greece is dominated by socialism just like THE REST OF EUROPE’, so it’s clear just how much socialist dominance we are talking about!

,

If you are claiming that we are dominated by socialist ideas to the extend that the rest of Europe is

I would say you are right concerning new ‘east’ Europe

Wrong, about old ‘west’ Europe (we have nothing near the level and the extent of the public services, subsidies, welfare that they have- for example, Greece has by far the most privatized health system in Europe)

Το άρθρο δεν έλεγε μόνο ότι US does not give a shit about the name of Skopje,αλλά και το ότι οι έλληνες όχι μόνο δεν το έχουν καταλάβει,αλλά νομίζουν ότι παίζουν και "ύποτπα" τηλεφωνήματα κτλ που έχουν σαν απώτερο στόχο την πλήξη των ελληνικών συμφερόντων.Αυτό είναι το link.

That is just not the case.

You take far too many liberties with the interpretation of the papahellas piece.

He says that people think there is an intense secret activity and interest about these issues, when there isn’t and quite rightly interprets that as an exaggerated sense of self-importance.

Sorry, he is just saying something different to what you are saying

If you had said that a disproportionate impression about the importance of the issues involving Greece to the strategy and the interests of the US is dominant or at least prevalent in Greece I would have agreed.

If you had talked about

Conspiracy theorism concerning the parameters of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan [primarily the fairytale of this being part of an ‘anti-Islamic’ campaign]

The embellishment of Islamic terrorism

The demonization and the ridiculing of the US leadership

The consistent bias about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

By the Greek media, not Greece as a state thankfully,

I would have agreed that it is at least prevalent and it is does constitute a problem

Aυτό είναι απλώς μια προσπάθεια να χρησημοποιήσεις αγγλικό χιούμορ μαζί με την αγγλική γλώσσα ή υπάρχει και κάποιο επιχείρημα που δεν μπορώ να διακρίνω;

Come on

We both know that you are sharper than that

When I pointed to potential dangers in ideas introduced as ‘new, exciting, innovative and successful abroad’

You quite rightly filled in the picture by pointing to some of the potential benefits

I simply filled in the picture by pointing out that millions of non ‘aristocrats’ were anti war as well and acted accordingly at great personal risk.

My comment obviously pointed to the fact that a pro peace stance was reached by individuals belonging to humble classes and harnessing different ideas to those of your aristocrats and thus demonstrate that there is no class or ideology monopoly on ‘pacifism’ –as you call it-.

Funny, I somehow think that are one of very few who wouldn’t immediately grasp this argument

[Ptca]

.

Για την σχέση ελλάδας-σερβίας στον εμφύλιο,σε παραπέμπω στο βιβλίο "Ανίερη συμμαχία"-ελλάδα σερβία.Εκεί θα βρεις ό,τι στοιχεία ζητάς και δεν γίνεται να βάλω σε ένα ποστ.

America used Islamists to arm the Bosnian Muslims

The Srebrenica report reveals the Pentagon's role in a dirty war

Richard J Aldrich

Monday April 22, 2002

The Guardian

The official Dutch inquiry into the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, released last week, contains one of the most sensational reports on western intelligence ever published. Officials have been staggered by its findings and the Dutch government has resigned. One of its many volumes is devoted to clandestine activities during the Bosnian war of the early 1990s. For five years, Professor Cees Wiebes of Amsterdam University has had unrestricted access to Dutch intelligence files and has stalked the corridors of secret service headquarters in western capitals, as well as in Bosnia, asking questions.

Article continues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His findings are set out in "Intelligence and the war in Bosnia, 1992-1995". It includes remarkable material on covert operations, signals interception, human agents and double-crossing by dozens of agencies in one of dirtiest wars of the new world disorder. Now we have the full story of the secret alliance between the Pentagon and radical Islamist groups from the Middle East designed to assist the Bosnian Muslims - some of the same groups that the Pentagon is now fighting in "the war against terrorism". Pentagon operations in Bosnia have delivered their own "blowback".

In the 1980s Washington's secret services had assisted Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Then, in 1990, the US fought him in the Gulf. In both Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.

The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah. Wiebes reveals that the British intelligence services obtained documents early on in the Bosnian war proving that Iran was making direct deliveries.

Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East. Initially aircraft from Iran Air were used, but as the volume increased they were joined by a mysterious fleet of black C-130 Hercules aircraft. The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations.

Light weapons are the familiar currency of secret services seeking to influence such conflicts. The volume of weapons flown into Croatia was enormous, partly because of a steep Croatian "transit tax". Croatian forces creamed off between 20% and 50% of the arms. The report stresses that this entire trade was clearly illicit. The Croats themselves also obtained massive quantities of illegal weapons from Germany, Belgium and Argentina - again in contravention of the UN arms embargo. The German secret services were fully aware of the trade.

Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations. The UN protection force, UNPROFOR, was dependent on its troop-contributing nations for intelligence, and above all on the sophisticated monitoring capabilities of the US to police the arms embargo. This gave the Pentagon the ability to manipulate the embargo at will: ensuring that American Awacs aircraft covered crucial areas and were able to turn a blind eye to the frequent nightime comings and goings at Tuzla.

Weapons flown in during the spring of 1995 were to turn up only a fortnight later in the besieged and demilitarised enclave at Srebrenica. When these shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.

Both the CIA and British SIS had a more sophisticated perspective on the conflict than the Pentagon, insisting that no side had clean hands and arguing for caution. James Woolsey, director of the CIA until May 1995, had increasingly found himself out of step with the Clinton White House over his reluctance to develop close relations with the Islamists. The sentiments were reciprocated. In the spring of 1995, when the CIA sent its first head of station to Sarajevo to liaise with Bosnia's security authorities, the Bosnians tipped off Iranian intelligence. The CIA learned that the Iranians had targeted him for liquidation and quickly withdrew him.

Iranian and Afghan veterans' training camps had also been identified in Bosnia. Later, in the Dayton Accords of November 1995, the stipulation appeared that all foreign forces be withdrawn. This was a deliberate attempt to cleanse Bosnia of Iranian-run training camps. The CIA's main opponents in Bosnia were now the mojahedin fighters and their Iranian trainers - whom the Pentagon had been helping to supply months earlier.

Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale involving a substantial supply of artillery shells and mortar bombs. In return they secured safe passage for the Jewish population out of the besieged town of Sarajevo. Subsequently, the remaining population was perplexed to find that unexploded mortar bombs landing in Sarajevo sometimes had Hebrew markings.

The broader lessons of the intelligence report on Srebrenica are clear. Those who were able to deploy intelligence power, including the Americans and their enemies, the Bosnian Serbs, were both able to get their way. Conversely, the UN and the Dutch government were "deprived of the means and capacity for obtaining intelligence" for the Srebrenica deployment, helping to explain why they blundered in, and contributed to the terrible events there.

Secret intelligence techniques can be war-winning and life-saving. But they are not being properly applied. How the UN can have good intelligence in the context of multinational peace operations is a vexing question. Removing light weapons from a conflict can be crucial to drawing it down. But the secret services of some states - including Israel and Iran - continue to be a major source of covert supply, pouring petrol on the flames of already bitter conflicts.

· Richard J Aldrich is Professor of Politics at the University of Nottingham. His 'The Hidden Hand: Britain, America and Cold War Secret Intelligence' is published in paperback by John Murray in August.

richard.aldrich@nottingham.ac.uk

something along those lines right?