Jump to content

Ή είστε μαζί μας, ή είστε με τους τρομοκράτες!


Recommended Posts

Τις τελευταίες μέρες πολλά έχουν αλλάξει: μετά το τρομοκρατικό χτύπημα στην Ισπανία και το θάνατο περισσότερων από 200 ανθρώπων, η Ευρώπη φαίνεται ότι βρίσκεται κι αυτή στο στόχαστρο της τρομοκρατίας. Η Ελλάδα, εν όψει Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, "τρέχει και δε φτάνει" για να δει πώς θα αντιμετωπίσει πιθανές απειλές, όχι πλέον από την εγχώρια τρομοκρατία της 17Ν και του ΕΛΑ, αλλά από τους διεθνείς κινδύνους.

Σήμερα, ένα χρόνο μετά την εισβολή στο Ιράκ, η αντιμετώπιση των ασύμμετρων απειλών έρχεται ξανά στην επικαιρότητα. Και το ερώτημα είναι: ποιος έχει δίκιο; Ο Μπους και το επιτελείο του ή οι χιλιάδες διαδηλωτές παγκοσμίως;

Ας δούμε τη σκέψη του Μπους...

Ένας από τους πιο πολυσυζητημένους λόγους όλων των εποχών, Τζωρτζ Μπους προς το Αμερικανικό Κογκρέσο, 20 Σεπτεμβρίου 2001:

Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People

United States Capitol

Washington, D.C.

View the President's Remarks

Listen to the President's Remarks

9:00 P.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Speaker, Mr. President Pro Tempore, members of Congress, and fellow Americans:

In the normal course of events, Presidents come to this chamber to report on the state of the Union. Tonight, no such report is needed. It has already been delivered by the American people.

We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground -- passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer. And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight. (Applause.)

We have seen the state of our Union in the endurance of rescuers, working past exhaustion. We have seen the unfurling of flags, the lighting of candles, the giving of blood, the saying of prayers -- in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. We have seen the decency of a loving and giving people who have made the grief of strangers their own.

My fellow citizens, for the last nine days, the entire world has seen for itself the state of our Union -- and it is strong. (Applause.)

Tonight we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger, and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. (Applause.)

I thank the Congress for its leadership at such an important time. All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America." And you did more than sing; you acted, by delivering $40 billion to rebuild our communities and meet the needs of our military.

Speaker Hastert, Minority Leader Gephardt, Majority Leader Daschle and Senator Lott, I thank you for your friendship, for your leadership and for your service to our country. (Applause.)

And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.

We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.

Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens. America has no truer friend than Great Britain. (Applause.) Once again, we are joined together in a great cause -- so honored the British Prime Minister has crossed an ocean to show his unity of purpose with America. Thank you for coming, friend. (Applause.)

On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars -- but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war -- but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks -- but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day -- and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.

This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.

The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.

Afghanistan's people have been brutalized -- many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.

The United States respects the people of Afghanistan -- after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid -- but we condemn the Taliban regime. (Applause.) It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.

And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. (Applause.) The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.

I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. (Applause.) The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. (Applause.)

Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. (Applause.)

Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.

They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.

We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the disruption and to the defeat of the global terror network.

This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Our nation has been put on notice: We are not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me -- the Office of Homeland Security.

And tonight I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend -- Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. (Applause.) He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism, and respond to any attacks that may come.

These measures are essential. But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows. (Applause.)

Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents to intelligence operatives to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight, a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. (Applause.)

This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom.

We ask every nation to join us. We will ask, and we will need, the help of police forces, intelligence services, and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded -- with sympathy and with support. Nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO Charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all.

The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror, unanswered, can not only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what -- we're not going to allow it. (Applause.)

Americans are asking: What is expected of us? I ask you to live your lives, and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat.

I ask you to uphold the values of America, and remember why so many have come here. We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith. (Applause.)

I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.

The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.

I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.

I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity. They did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work, and creativity, and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before September 11th, and they are our strengths today. (Applause.)

And, finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform, and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow, and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.

Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together.

Tonight, we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights, and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying, with direct assistance during this emergency. (Applause.)

We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. (Applause.) We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act, and find them before they strike. (Applause.)

We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy, and put our people back to work.

Tonight we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers: Governor George Pataki, and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. (Applause.) As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress, and these two leaders, to show the world that we will rebuild New York City. (Applause.)

After all that has just passed -- all the lives taken, and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them -- it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead, and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror; this will be an age of liberty, here and across the world. (Applause.)

Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail. (Applause.)

It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever.

And I will carry this: It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end. (Applause.)

I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them. (Applause.)

Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America.

Thank you. (Applause.)

END 9:41 P.M. EDT

Ο λόγος του Προέδρου Μπους μετά τη λήξη των εχθροπραξιών στο Ιράκ:

President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended

Remarks by the President from the USS Abraham Lincoln

At Sea Off the Coast of San Diego, California

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much. Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans: Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. (Applause.) And now our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country.

In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment -- yet, it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage, your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other, made this day possible. Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free. (Applause.)

Operation Iraqi Freedom was carried out with a combination of precision and speed and boldness the enemy did not expect, and the world had not seen before. From distant bases or ships at sea, we sent planes and missiles that could destroy an enemy division, or strike a single bunker. Marines and soldiers charged to Baghdad across 350 miles of hostile ground, in one of the swiftest advances of heavy arms in history. You have shown the world the skill and the might of the American Armed Forces.

This nation thanks all the members of our coalition who joined in a noble cause. We thank the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom, Australia, and Poland, who shared in the hardships of war. We thank all the citizens of Iraq who welcomed our troops and joined in the liberation of their own country. And tonight, I have a special word for Secretary Rumsfeld, for General Franks, and for all the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States: America is grateful for a job well done. (Applause.)

The character of our military through history -- the daring of Normandy, the fierce courage of Iwo Jima, the decency and idealism that turned enemies into allies -- is fully present in this generation. When Iraqi civilians looked into the faces of our servicemen and women, they saw strength and kindness and goodwill. When I look at the members of the United States military, I see the best of our country, and I'm honored to be your Commander-in-Chief. (Applause.)

In the images of falling statues, we have witnessed the arrival of a new era. For a hundred of years of war, culminating in the nuclear age, military technology was designed and deployed to inflict casualties on an ever-growing scale. In defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, Allied forces destroyed entire cities, while enemy leaders who started the conflict were safe until the final days. Military power was used to end a regime by breaking a nation.

Today, we have the greater power to free a nation by breaking a dangerous and aggressive regime. With new tactics and precision weapons, we can achieve military objectives without directing violence against civilians. No device of man can remove the tragedy from war; yet it is a great moral advance when the guilty have far more to fear from war than the innocent. (Applause.)

In the images of celebrating Iraqis, we have also seen the ageless appeal of human freedom. Decades of lies and intimidation could not make the Iraqi people love their oppressors or desire their own enslavement. Men and women in every culture need liberty like they need food and water and air. Everywhere that freedom arrives, humanity rejoices; and everywhere that freedom stirs, let tyrants fear. (Applause.)

We have difficult work to do in Iraq. We're bringing order to parts of that country that remain dangerous. We're pursuing and finding leaders of the old regime, who will be held to account for their crimes. We've begun the search for hidden chemical and biological weapons and already know of hundreds of sites that will be investigated. We're helping to rebuild Iraq, where the dictator built palaces for himself, instead of hospitals and schools. And we will stand with the new leaders of Iraq as they establish a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people. (Applause.)

The transition from dictatorship to democracy will take time, but it is worth every effort. Our coalition will stay until our work is done. Then we will leave, and we will leave behind a free Iraq. (Applause.)

The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the "beginning of the end of America." By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed. (Applause.)

In the battle of Afghanistan, we destroyed the Taliban, many terrorists, and the camps where they trained. We continue to help the Afghan people lay roads, restore hospitals, and educate all of their children. Yet we also have dangerous work to complete. As I speak, a Special Operations task force, led by the 82nd Airborne, is on the trail of the terrorists and those who seek to undermine the free government of Afghanistan. America and our coalition will finish what we have begun. (Applause.)

From Pakistan to the Philippines to the Horn of Africa, we are hunting down al Qaeda killers. Nineteen months ago, I pledged that the terrorists would not escape the patient justice of the United States. And as of tonight, nearly one-half of al Qaeda's senior operatives have been captured or killed. (Applause.)

The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more. (Applause.)

In these 19 months that changed the world, our actions have been focused and deliberate and proportionate to the offense. We have not forgotten the victims of September the 11th -- the last phone calls, the cold murder of children, the searches in the rubble. With those attacks, the terrorists and their supporters declared war on the United States. And war is what they got. (Applause.)

Our war against terror is proceeding according to principles that I have made clear to all: Any person involved in committing or planning terrorist attacks against the American people becomes an enemy of this country, and a target of American justice. (Applause.)

Any person, organization, or government that supports, protects, or harbors terrorists is complicit in the murder of the innocent, and equally guilty of terrorist crimes.

Any outlaw regime that has ties to terrorist groups and seeks or possesses weapons of mass destruction is a grave danger to the civilized world -- and will be confronted. (Applause.)

And anyone in the world, including the Arab world, who works and sacrifices for freedom has a loyal friend in the United States of America. (Applause.)

Click here for a USS Abraham Lincoln photo essay.

Our commitment to liberty is America's tradition -- declared at our founding; affirmed in Franklin Roosevelt's Four Freedoms; asserted in the Truman Doctrine and in Ronald Reagan's challenge to an evil empire. We are committed to freedom in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in a peaceful Palestine. The advance of freedom is the surest strategy to undermine the appeal of terror in the world. Where freedom takes hold, hatred gives way to hope. When freedom takes hold, men and women turn to the peaceful pursuit of a better life. American values and American interests lead in the same direction: We stand for human liberty. (Applause.)

The United States upholds these principles of security and freedom in many ways -- with all the tools of diplomacy, law enforcement, intelligence, and finance. We're working with a broad coalition of nations that understand the threat and our shared responsibility to meet it. The use of force has been -- and remains -- our last resort. Yet all can know, friend and foe alike, that our nation has a mission: We will answer threats to our security, and we will defend the peace. (Applause.)

Our mission continues. Al Qaeda is wounded, not destroyed. The scattered cells of the terrorist network still operate in many nations, and we know from daily intelligence that they continue to plot against free people. The proliferation of deadly weapons remains a serious danger. The enemies of freedom are not idle, and neither are we. Our government has taken unprecedented measures to defend the homeland. And we will continue to hunt down the enemy before he can strike. (Applause.)

The war on terror is not over; yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide. No act of the terrorists will change our purpose, or weaken our resolve, or alter their fate. Their cause is lost. Free nations will press on to victory. (Applause.)

Other nations in history have fought in foreign lands and remained to occupy and exploit. Americans, following a battle, want nothing more than to return home. And that is your direction tonight. (Applause.) After service in the Afghan -- and Iraqi theaters of war -- after 100,000 miles, on the longest carrier deployment in recent history, you are homeward bound. (Applause.) Some of you will see new family members for the first time -- 150 babies were born while their fathers were on the Lincoln. Your families are proud of you, and your nation will welcome you. (Applause.)

We are mindful, as well, that some good men and women are not making the journey home. One of those who fell, Corporal Jason Mileo, spoke to his parents five days before his death. Jason's father said, "He called us from the center of Baghdad, not to brag, but to tell us he loved us. Our son was a soldier."

Every name, every life is a loss to our military, to our nation, and to the loved ones who grieve. There's no homecoming for these families. Yet we pray, in God's time, their reunion will come.

Those we lost were last seen on duty. Their final act on this Earth was to fight a great evil and bring liberty to others. All of you -- all in this generation of our military -- have taken up the highest calling of history. You're defending your country, and protecting the innocent from harm. And wherever you go, you carry a message of hope -- a message that is ancient and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, "To the captives, 'come out,' -- and to those in darkness, 'be free.'"

Thank you for serving our country and our cause. May God bless you all, and may God continue to bless America. (Applause.)

END 6:27 P.M. PDT

Και το παγκόσμιο μήνυμα του Προέδρου Μπους τώρα, ένα χρόνο μετά:

From President Bush's speech at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky, 3/18/04

Because one year ago today the armed forces of the United States and our allies entered Iraq to end the regime of Saddam Hussein:

One of the most evil, brutal regimes in history is gone forever.

A state sponsor of terror is out of business.

An aggressive threat to the security of the Middle East and the peace of the world is gone.

It is clear that we keep our word. By speaking clearly and consistently, and by meaning what we say, it is more likely the world will be more peaceful.

Democracy is rising in the heart of the Middle East.

Iraq has a new interim law that guarantees basic rights for all: freedom of religion, the right to cast a secret ballot, and equality under the law.

These historic democratic changes are sending a message across the region from Damascus to Tehran: Freedom is the future of every nation.

The Iraqi people are achieving great things and sacrificing for their own future. They're building a country that is strong and free.

The war on terror continues. Terrorists are fighting desperately to undermine Iraq's progress toward freedom.

They know the rise of democracy in the Middle East will mean the end of their appeal and influence.

They hate and target a free Iraq and every country that stands for democracy, tolerance, and freedom. They kill the innocent without conscience or mercy.

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground -- passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer.  And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight.  (Applause.)

emosama Εντοπίστε το λάθος στην παρακάτω ιστορία:ένας άνθρωπος αποκοιμιέται στην εκκλησία.Στον ύπνο του βλέπει ένα λιοντάρι να τον κυνηγάει και πεθαίνει από τον φόβο του.Που είναι το λάθος;Μα που στο καλό ξέραμε τι ονειρεύτηκε;

emosama Έτσι και σύμφωνα με τα αμερικάνικα ΜΜΕ που προφανώς απευθύνονται σε κατά τεκμήριο ευφυείς ανθρώπους,όπως και ο πρόεδρος της Αμερικής-τους Αμερικανούς εννοώ :P -είδαμε να κυκλοφορούν διάφορες ιστορίες.Σημειωτέον ότι όταν εκφωνήθηκε ο συγκεκριμένος λόγος δεν είχαν βρεθεί τα μαύρα κουτιά και σε κανένα από τα 4 αεροπλάνα δεν περιείχαν κάποια πληροφορία όταν ερευνήθηκαν εκτός από θορύβους.Οι αεροπειρατές,σύμφωνα με τις ιστορίες,είχαν ξύλινα μαχαίρια,είχαν λάμες-ξυραφάκια κ.ο.κ. για να μπορέσουν να περάσουν τον έλγχο στο αεροδρόμιο-δεν έχει σημασία που 2 εβδομάδες μετά διάφοροι δημοσιογράφοι ανά τον κόσμο περνούσαν πιστόλια σε αεροδρόμια για να δείξουν πόσο εύκολο είναι και με αυξημένα μέτρα ασφαλείας.Οι επιβάτες της τέταρτης πτήσης εξεγέρθηκαν και έτσι έπεσε το αεροπλάνο αντί να πέσει στον λευκό οίκο που ήταν ο τέταρτος στόχος και συνεπώς οι επιβάτες ήταν ήρωες.Φυσικώ τω τρόπω ανακύπτει το ερώτημα πώς ξέρουν οι Αμερικανοί ότι οι επιβάτες ξεσηκώθηκαν;Το τελευταίο πόρισμα για την 11/9 λέει ότι ξεσηκώθηκαν οι επιβάτες μεν,αλλά οι αεροπειρατές διάλεξαν να ρίξουν το αεροπλάνο.Και από που ήξεραν τι στόχο είχαν οι αεροπειρατές;Να πούμε ότι δεν σώθηκε κανένας από τους επιβάτες των τεσσάρων αεροπλάνων και χριεάστηκε ένας μήνας για να γίνει απλώς γνωστή η ταυτότητα των αεροπειράτων,ορισμένμοι δε δεν είναι γνωστοί ακόμα,αφού ο ίδιος ο αρχηγός του FBI Miller παραδέχτηκε ότι ορισμένα ονόματα αντιστοιχούν σε ζωντανούς κατοίκους αραβικών χωρών που διαμαρτηρήθηκαν εντόνως.

emosama Αυτό που θέλω να πω δεν είναι ότι υπάρχει κάποια συνομωσία,απλά ο πρόεδρος μεταφέρει πληροφορίς που μόνο κάποιος που επιστρέφει από τον άλλο κόσμο είναι σε θέση να γνωρίζει.Ειλικρινά με προβληματίζει το κοινό που τα πιστεύει αυτά.Ή ο Μπους είναι νεκρομάντης emrip ή η ατάκα

Ας δούμε τη σκέψη του Μπους...

περιέχει τα 2 ασυμβίβαστα:σκέψη και Μπους.

emosama Κατανοώ την ανάγκη του αμερικάνικου κοινού να δημιουργεί ήρωες,έστω και ψεύτικους όπως οι επιβάτες της πτήσης ή η Τζέσικα Λυντς,αλλά στην Ελλάδα δεν έχουμε ανάγκη να χάβουμε την κάθε αμερικάνικη μαλακία άκριτα.

Αν οι αμερικανοί πιστεύουν ότι είναι land of the brave and home of the free δεν έχουν όμως να επιδείξουν κάτι αντίστοιχο,εμείς έχουμε Θερμοπύλες και Μεσολόγγι,Αρκάδι και Τεπελένι(κάνουμε και το εθνικοπατριωτικό κήρυγμα μέρες που έρχονται) και όχι ας πούμε έναν David Crocket που πεθαίνει για να κλέψει την γη των Μεξικανών και τους επιβάτες μιας πτήσης που πέθαναν για να τους κάνει ήρωες ένας πρόεδρος που την κοπάνησε από τον στρατό. :splaaaats:

Τροποποιήθηκε από Nievsky
Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Αν οι αμερικανοί πιστεύουν ότι είναι land of the brave and home of the free δεν έχουν όμως να επιδείξουν κάτι αντίστοιχο,εμείς έχουμε Θερμοπύλες και Μεσολόγγι,Αρκάδι και Τεπελένι(κάνουμε και το εθνικοπατριωτικό κήρυγμα μέρες που έρχονται) και όχι ας πούμε έναν David Crocket που πεθαίνει για να κλέψει την γη των Μεξικανών και τους επιβάτες μιας πτήσης που πέθαναν για να τους κάνει ήρωες ένας πρόεδρος που την κοπάνησε από τον στρατό. :splaaaats:

Προφανώς η Σαρατόγκα, η Νορμανδία, η Ιβοτζίμα και δεκάδες άλλες μάχες δε σου λένε τίποτα;

ALWAYS.JPG

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Προφανώς η Σαρατόγκα, η Νορμανδία, η Ιβοτζίμα και δεκάδες άλλες μάχες δε σου λένε τίποτα;

emkwlos Όχι,και στον υπόλοιπο κόσμο το ίδιο.Πάντως,μια που αναφέρθηκε λατρεύω την πλαστή φώτο της Ιβοτζίμα που τραβήχτηκε σε στούντιο,για να μας δείξει πόσο ηρωικά οι Αμερικανοί νίκησαν με συντριπτική υπεροπλία τους δειλούς Ιάπωνες που έπεσαν μέχρι ενός.Πάντα τέτοιος ηρωισμός παιδιά. emkafes Διότι ως γνωστόν ήρωας είναι όποιος νικά έναν κατώτερο σε δυνάμεις στρατό και μετά ποζάρει σε στούντιο για να δείξει πόσο macho είναι,γιατί θεωρεί επικίνδυνο να στήσει την σημαία του στο έδαφος που έχει νικήσει ;) τον εχθρό που σκιάζεται και πεθαμένο. Ή θυσιάζεται σε ένα αεροπλάνο για να αποδειχτεί τελικά ότι το έριξε μόνος του ο αεροπειράτης. :splaaaats: Ή λιποθυμά χωρίς να ρίξει μια ντουφεκιά και μετά τον ελευθερώνουν,αφού φυσικά φύγουν οι δυνάμεις του αντιπάλου,οι ειδικές δυνάμεις του στρατού του μπροστά στις κάμερες. :splaaaats:

Τροποποιήθηκε από Nievsky
Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Αν δεν μπορείς να εκτιμήσεις τους αγώνες των άλλων (τι πιστεύει ο υπόλοιπος κόσμος άσε τον ίδιο να το κρίνει), και βλέπεις μόνο όσα έκαναν οι δικοί σου αυτό λέγεται εθνικιστική υπεροψία (αν σώνει και καλά θέλεις να πεις κάτι κακό για τους Αμερικανούς, αυτό δεν είναι τόσο ότι δεν έχουν ηρωικές στιγμές να επιδείξουν όσο ότι μάλλον και αυτοί υποτιμούν των υπόλοιπων). Αν θεωρείς μικρότερης αξίας τη Νορμανδία από το Τεπελένι τουλάχιστον μη το λες και πολύ παραέξω!

Όσο για τη φωτογραφία, τραβήχτηκε όχι σε στούντιο αλλά στο όρος Suribachi στις 23 Φεβρουαρίου του 1945 αμέσως μόλις κατελήφθη από τους Αμερικανούς (και όχι μετά το τέλος της μάχης, ο οποία τελείωσε την 26η Μαρτίου). Κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης είχε υψωθεί μια σημαία αλλά ήταν μικρή και όχι ευδιάκριτη από τα πλοία ώστε να κατευθύνουν τα πυρά τους. Γι'αυτό μεταφέρθηκε μια μεγαλύτερη την ανύψωση της οποίας αποθανάτισαν τρεις φωτογράφοι (Rosenthal, Lowery και Campbell). Στην ιστορία έμεινε φυσικά του Rosenthal. Τα περί πλαστής είναι για γέλια φυσικά. Εκτός αν κάποιος είχε την απαίτηση οι φωτογράφοι να τραβάνε τις φωτογραφίες τους από την πρώτη γραμμή κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης!!!

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Αυτό που είχα ακούσει ήταν ότι μίλησαν στο κινητό από την τουαλέτα του αεροπλάνου (ναι ναι, όπως ακριβώς στις υπερπαραγωγές του Χόλιγουντ!).

Για τον κο Beamer, διαβάστε αυτό [από τη σελίδα του Todd M. Beamer Foundation, Inc. (!!!!!!!), http://www.beamerfoundation.org/index.php ]

Flight 93 Story

Excerpt from Let's Roll! Ordinary People, Extraordinary Courage

by Lisa Beamer with Ken Abraham

PLOTS ABOARD FLIGHT 93

THE FIRST KNOWN phone call came from Tom Burnett of San Ramon, California, a father of three little girls and an executive for Thoretec, a health-care company. A big man who quarterbacked his high school football team, Tom was seated in the first-class cabin next to Mark Bingham, a San Francisco publicist who was on his way home. Mark had overslept that morning and had run down the A-17 gangway just as the flight attendants were about to close the plane’s door. Had he been a few minutes later, he would have missed the flight.

Tom Burnett called his wife, Deena, at their home. A former flight attendant herself, she immediately picked up on the fact that something was wrong “Are you okay?” she asked.

“No,” Tom replied. “I am on the airplane, United Flight 93, and it has been hijacked.” He spoke quickly and quietly. “They’ve knifed a guy and there’s a bomb on board. Please call the authorities, Deena.” And he hung up.

Lisa Jefferson was at work at the GTE Airfone Customer Care Center in Oakbrook, Illinois, a Chicago suburb, when she first heard news of the terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington, D.C. A supervisor with more than 18 years of experience at her job, she came out of her office to get more information. Just then, at about 8:45 A.M. CDT (9:45 EDT), the operator at Station 15 received an urgent call. The operator signaled for Lisa's assistance.

"She told me she had a real hijacking situation on her line," Lisa said. "I asked her what airline and the flight number. She told me it was United Flight 93. She appeared to be traumatized, so I told her I would take over.

"When I took over the call, there was a gentleman on the phone. He was very calm and soft-spoken. I introduced myself to him as Mrs. Jefferson and told him, ‘I understand this plane is being hijacked. Can you please give me detailed information as to what is going on?'" Then Lisa began going through her GTE Distress-Call Manual, asking questions such as, "How many people are on board? How many hijackers? Are they armed? Are there any children on board?"

The man answered Lisa Jefferson in an equally calm manner. He was sitting next to a flight attendant who helped him relay the information: 27 passengers in coach, 10 in first class, five flight attendants, and no children that he could see. "He told me that three people had taken over the plane," said Lisa, "two with knives and one with a bomb strapped around his waist with a red belt. The two with knives had locked themselves in the cockpit. They ordered everyone to sit down, as the flight attendants were still standing. One of the flight attendants just happened to sit next to Todd in the back of the plane. The hijacker with the bomb pulled the curtain that divided first class from coach so the passengers in the back couldn't see what was going on."

But Todd did see two people on the floor. "He couldn't tell if they were dead or alive," said Lisa. "The flight attendant told him she was pretty sure it was the pilot and the copilot.

"I asked the caller's name and he told me, 'Todd Beamer.' He told me he was from Cranbury, New Jersey.

At first I thought Todd was whispering or keeping his voice down low to prevent detection, so I told him that if at any point he thought his life might be in jeopardy for being on the line with me to put the phone down but try not to hang up -- to keep the line open so I could at least hear what was going on.

"But he didn't seem to be concerned. He said he was fine. At first he said, 'Maybe I should try to call my wife.' Then he said, 'No, I just want to let someone know this is happening.' He thought the terrorists were going back to the airport and the plane would land safely."

Lisa Jefferson later told me, “He didn’t want to call you and give you bad news if he didn’t have to. I offered to try and connect him with you. He went back and forth on it several times before he decided against it.”

I’m so glad he didn’t. Had I learned about Todd’s circumstances by hearing his voice from the plane, I no doubt would have lost it. I have tremendous respect for those family members and friends who received calls from hijacked flights that day and were able to maintain their composure. But I honestly don't think I would have responded so well. And Todd knew that. Todd was a smart guy. He knew I was home by myself with the boys and would have been powerless to help; moreover, he may have been concerned about our unborn baby had I gotten too upset. So I wasn't surprised to learn from Lisa that he had considered calling me and had chosen against it. Nor was I offended or hurt. In the only way he could, Todd was still looking out for me, protecting me, even in such awful circumstances.

At first, most likely, Todd thought that this hijacking would end similarly to other hijackings in our history, with the hijackers making demands, landing the plane in some location amenable to their cause, and negotiators hopefully being able to find a solution. While he recognized the danger, he didn't seem desperate.

"Todd was calm all the way through our conversation,” Lisa told me. "He asked me, 'Do you know what they want? Do they want money, or ransom, or what?' "

"'I really don't know,' I told him. I didn't have a clue what they wanted. I didn't tell him about the other hijackings at that point, and I don't think he was aware of them yet. I didn't want him to get upset or excited or lose control, and I still felt that he had hope."

By now the FBI was on another line, listening in, since part of GTE's distress procedure is to notify them.

"Suddenly Todd's voice inflection went up a little bit and he said, 'We are going down! We're going down. No, wait. We are coming back up. No, we are turning around, we are going north...I really don't know where we are going. Oh, Jesus, please help us!' "

Just about 10 minutes earlier, at 9:36 A.M. EDT, the air-traffic controllers on the ground had watched their radar screens in horror as the plane made a hairpin left turn just above Cleveland, veering sharply off course and turning south, then east. Where was this plane going?

What actually happened in the next several minutes is unclear. Apparently, the plane's autopilot and transponder -- the device that emits a signal by which radar can track a plane -- were switched off, and the hijackers were flying erratically. The plane began plunging, lurching, and bobbing from the altitude it had maintained previously. Perhaps the hijackers were simply trying to keep the passengers off guard by jolting them around. Todd had always talked about “flying below the radar"; now, with the transponder turned off, he actually was.

Tom Burnett called Deena a second time. "They're in the cockpit now!" he told her. He asked Deena about the World Trade Center. "Were the planes that hit it commercial airliners?"

“I don’t know," Deena replied.

“We’re turning back to New York," he told her. "No, we’re heading south.” Tom said he had to go and hung up again.

Three minutes later the Pentagon was hit. The FAA ordered all airports in the country closed immediately and all airborne planes to the ground, but Flight 93 maintained its new course, heading southeast...straight toward Washington, D.C.

Seated somewhere near Todd was Jeremy Glick, a new father from Hewitt, New Jersey, an hour and a half from where Todd and I lived. A strong, athletic-looking guy at six feet, one inch, and 220 pounds, Jeremy was a former NCAA judo champion with a love for waterskiing. Just the type of guy with whom Todd would have struck up an instant friendship under different circumstances. As it was, the two men quickly found some common ground. Todd specifically mentioned Jeremy's name to Lisa Jefferson.

Jeremy had planned to fly out to San Francisco for a business meeting the day before, but because of the fire at the airport, his flight had been rerouted to Kennedy International. Jeremy chose instead to return home and take Tuesday's early flight out of Newark -- United Flight 93.

Since Jeremy had planned to be gone, his wife, Lyz, had taken their three-month-old baby, Emmy, to visit Lyz's parents in Windham, upstate New York. Jeremy had called Lyz around 7:30 that morning before boarding, just to say a quick hello. Lyz's dad had picked up the phone and told Jeremy that Emmy had been fussing the night before, so Lyz was still sleeping. They decided to let her sleep. “Have a good trip,” Lyz's dad told Jeremy.

Now Jeremy was calling back, this time from somewhere above Cleveland. “Three Iranian-looking men wearing red headbands, one with a red box strapped to his waist, say they have a bomb and have taken control of the plane,” he told Lyz.

Lyz heard Jeremy mention a bomb, she panicked. Jeremy calmed her down, and the couple stayed on the phone for nearly 20 minutes. They told each other, "I love you,” over and over. Jeremy must have sensed the situation wasn't going to turn out well. He told Lyz he wanted her and Emmy to be happy, and that he'd respect any decisions she made in the future.

Then Jeremy said, "Lyz, I need to know something. One of the other passengers talked to his wife and said that planes had crashed into the World Trade Center. Is that true?”

Lyz was afraid to tell Jeremy what she was seeing with her own eyes. Standing in the living room, watching the television she could see the smoke from the World Trade Center that had just collapsed. She hesitated for a moment and then said “Please be strong, but yes, they are doing that."

“Is that where we're going, too?" Jeremy asked. Lyz told him she didn't think there was anything left of the World Trade Center. When Tom Burnett called Deena a third time, she told him, “Tom, they just hit the Pentagon. They seem to be taking planes and driving them into landmarks all over the East Coast."

Tom told Deena he was suspicious about the hijackers’ bomb. “I think they are bluffing,” he told his wife. “We’re going to do something. I’ve got to go.” About that same time, Jeremy Glick told Lyz that some of the guys in the back of the plane were talking about rushing the hijackers.

Meanwhile, other people aboard Flight 93 were calling friends and loved ones as well. Earlier that morning, Lauren Grandcolas had been delighted to learn that she could get a standby seat aboard Flight 93; it would get her home earlier than expected. She'd called and left a message for her husband to that effect. Now she called again and left another message. "We are having a little problem on the plane, but I am fine and comfortable...for now."

Joseph DeLuca called his dad. His girlfriend, Linda Gronlund, called her sister, telling her the combination to a safe-deposit box and how much she loved her. Marion Britton borrowed a phone to call a friend, telling him that she was sure she was going to die. She said, "They already slit two people's throats."

Mark Bingham, at six feet, five inches, was a former rugby player on a national championship team. He had once faced down an armed mugger on the streets of San Francisco. A gutsy guy and a risk taker, he had run with the bulls in Pamplona a few months previously. But when Mark called his mom, Alice Hoglan, from the plane, he seemed distracted and rattled. "Mom, this is Mark Bingham," he said. "I just want to tell you that I love you case I don't see you again." Mark's mom heard somber voices in the background during the call, possibly laying initial plans for a counterattack.

Flight attendant Sandy Bradshaw called her husband, a USAirways pilot, from the coach-class galley. "We've been hijacked," she told him. She also said she and some other flight attendants were filling coffeepots with boiling water to throw at the hijackers.

More than two dozen phone calls were placed from the plane that morning. Why had the hijackers permitted such easy access with the outside world? Some people have speculated that the terrorists actually wanted passengers to call, to increase the fright they felt they were inflicting and to create even more widespread havoc. Possibly they overestimated their control of the situation, or perhaps they underestimated the Americans on board, considering them too weak and timorous to fight back. For whatever reason, the terrorists made no effort to thwart the outgoing phone calls. None of the people who connected with family or friends on the ground gave any indication that they feared being caught, punished, or killed if seen making an attempt to communicate with the outside world.

It’s not known whether the passengers aboard Flight 93 truly knew what a formidable force they represented that morning, and how good their chances of landing the plane safely might have been if -- and what a large if it was -- they could regain control of the cockpit.

Besides the assortment of athletic colleagues such as Jeremy Glick, Tom Burnett, and Mark Bingham, several passengers were well able to take care of themselves. CeeCee Ross-Lyles, one of the flight attendants, was a former police officer. Lou Nacke was a human fireplug at five feet, three inches, and 200 pounds. A company manager for K-B Toys and a weight lifter, Lou had a Superman tattoo on his shoulder. When he was a little boy, he once attempted to crash through a glass window while wearing his Superman cape.

Rich Guadagno was an enforcement officer with California Fish and Wildlife and had been trained in hand-to-hand combat. Linda Gronlund, a lawyer, had a brown belt in karate. Although he was 60 years of age, William Cashman was a former paratrooper with the 101st Airborne, and he was still in good shape. Alan Beaven, more than six feet tall, was a former Scotland Yard prosecutor who enjoyed rock climbing as a pastime. He had a sign on his desk: "Fear -- who cares?”

And then there was Todd -- strong, athletic, a gamer, the go-to guy.

In addition to sheer strength, the small number of passengers had a surprising amount of aeronautical acumen. Don Greene had flown single-engine planes before he was old enough to vote. He was the vice president of Safe Flight Instrument Group, a company that made safety devices for airlines, and with some coaching from air-traffic controllers on the ground, probably could have landed the United jet. Andrew Garcia was an air-traffic controller for the Air National Guard. Working together, they could probably have brought the plane down safely...if ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's Roll! Ordinary People, Extraordinary Courage

by Lisa Beamer with Ken Abraham.

Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.

Copyright © 2002 by Lisa Beamer and Ken Abraham. All rights reserved.

:splaaaats::splaaaats::splaaaats:

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Αν δεν μπορείς να εκτιμήσεις τους αγώνες των άλλων (τι πιστεύει ο υπόλοιπος κόσμος άσε τον ίδιο να το κρίνει), και βλέπεις μόνο όσα έκαναν οι δικοί σου αυτό λέγεται εθνικιστική υπεροψία (αν σώνει και καλά θέλεις να πεις κάτι κακό για τους Αμερικανούς, αυτό δεν είναι τόσο ότι δεν έχουν ηρωικές στιγμές να επιδείξουν όσο ότι μάλλον και αυτοί υποτιμούν των υπόλοιπων). Αν θεωρείς μικρότερης αξίας τη Νορμανδία από το Τεπελένι τουλάχιστον μη το λες και πολύ παραέξω!

:bloodomen: Αν τα επιχειρήματά σου είναι κοπλιμέντα όπως "εθνική υπεροψία" και προτροπές όπως "μην το λες παραέξω",τότε εντάξει πείστηκα,όπως φαντάζομαι και όλοι οι αναγνώστες του forum. :DΛυπάμαι γιατί την είπα στο συννεφάκι που απλώς έλεγε πράγματα χωρίς έλεγχο,αλλά διατηρώντας μια αξιοπρέπεια-όπως πάντα-στο λόγο του,και εδώ έχουμε ένα καθαρά προσωπικά υβριστικό post.Ειλικρινά δεν καταλαβαίνω πώς εξυπηρετεί τα επιχειρήματά σου το να με βρίζεις;Συγγνώμη αν οι φτωχοί ιθαγενείς emnative του site έχουν διαφορετική γνώμη.Αλλά και μιλάμε για εθνική υπεροψία είπα τίποτα για τα υπόλοιπα 200 έθνη της γης; emosama Αντιαμερικανισμός μάλιστα,να το δεχτώ. :splaaaats:

:bloodomen: Ας έρθουμε λίγο και στην ουσία της υπόθεσης.Ηρωισμός λέγεται μια αξιομνημόνευτη πράξη που γίνεται ενάντια σε αντιξοότητες και υπέρτερες δυνάμεις του αντιπάλου και με έναν ανώτερο στόχο.Αλλιώς πρέπει να ονομάσουμε κάθε πολεμική πράξη ηρωική.Αν το κίνητρο είναι ας πούμε η βλακώδης τυφλή υπακοή,αυτό λέγεται φανατισμός ή έστω βλακεία.Οι γιαπωνέζοι που στην Ιβοτζίμα έστησαν τον αντίστοιχο με τον ελληνικό χορό του Ζαλόγγου στις γκρεμίλες του νησιού ήταν απλά φανατικοί,όπως και τα Waffen SS στο ανατολικό μέτωπο.Οι άνδρες της ελαφράς ταξιάρχίας πρόβατα.Για να είσαι ήρωας πρέπει να κάνεις χρήση της προσωπικής σου ελευθερίας και της δυνατότητας να επιλέγεις και να σκέφτεσαι,όχι να υπακούς τυφλά.Την τυφλή υπακοή την κάνει και ένας σκύλος.Ακόμα πρέπει να συναντάς αντιξοότητες ,αλλιώς λέγεται υγιεινός περίπατος.Η πιο σημαντική μάχη της ελληνικής επανάστασης το πρώτο έτος ήταν στο Βαλτέτσι.Ακόμα και αν οι Έλληνες νίκησαν υπέρτερες δυνάμεις στο Βαλτέτσι για του Χριστού την πίστη την αγία και της πατρίδος την ελευθερία,αυτό που μνημονεύουμε πολύ παραπάνω είναι την Αλαμάνα την ίδια περίοδο.Ας θυμηθούμε μαζί,για να μην μας φλομώνουν οι Αμερικάνικες μαλακίες τι πάει να πει παληκαριά.Ο Διάκος ήταν αιχμάλωτος.Στον νερόμυλο στο πλάι της γέφυρας ήταν κλεισμένοι 4 άνδρες-όχι G.I.Joes-με τους σωματάρχες(τζοχανταραίους) Μπακογιάννη και Καλύβα.Ο Διάκος φώναξε "Μπακογιάννη,Καλύβα,4.000 χιλιάδες με κρατούν και αυτοί όρμησαν με τα σπαθιά 4 άνδρες,όχι G.I.Joes-ανάμεσα στους χιλιάδες,ώστε και αυτοί οι Τούρκοι να θαυμάσουν την παληκαριά τους.Τι κι αν στο Βαλτέτσι νίκησαν οι Έλληνες:Εμείς θυμόμαστε τον Σαλώνων Ησαϊα,τον Αθανάσιο Διάκο,τον Μπακογιάννη και Καλύβα που έπεσαν την ίδια μέρα.Ούτε έχουμε ανάγκη πληθωρισμού ηρώων γιατί στην Ελλάδα και ήρωες έχουμε και εθνομάρτυρες και ιστορία 4.000 χρόνων και δεν έχουμε μόνο να επιδείξουμε σφαγές γυναικοπαίδων.

:bloodomen: Ας έρθουμε στην Ιβοτζίμα,δεν θα ασχοληθώ ιδιαίτερα με τις άλλες μάχες,εκτός αν έχεις και εκεί άλλο οχετό ύβρεων να μου απευθύνεις.Είναι η Ιβοτζίμα ηρωική πράξη;Ας δούμε τα δεδομένα.Οι Αμερικανοί πολιορκούν ένα νησί με υπέρτερες δυνάμεις και συναντούν πεισματική αντίσταση.Πολεμούν γιατί ο πρόεδρος του ήθελε να κατέχει αυτός την εκμετάλλευση του ειρηνικού και όχι η Ιαπωνία(οποιαδήποτε άλλη ερμηνεία γιατί πολεμούσε η Αμερική με την Ιαπωνία ευπρόσδεκτη).Οι γιαπωνέζοι υπερασπιστές ηττώνται,αλλά δεν παραδίδονται,το σύνολό τους σχεδόν προτιμά να πέσει στην μάχη παρά να παραδοθεί.3.000 γυναικόπαιδα που έχουν απομείνει για να μην πέσουν στα χέρια των Αμερικανών πέφτουν οικειοθελώς από τους γκρεμούς του νησιού.Και εγώ ρωτάω,επειδή φαίνεται είμαι αργόστροφος για να μην το καταλαβαίνω:που είναι ο φοβερός ηρωισμός των Αμερικανών;Και γιατί είναι αυτοί οι ήρωες και όχι οι Γιαπωνέζοι υπερασπιστές;Μήπως επειδή η Αμερική έχει ανάγκη από ήρωες,αφού ήρωες έχει να επιδείξει ελάχιστούς έως κανένα,σφαγείς άφθονους;

Όσο για τη φωτογραφία, τραβήχτηκε όχι σε στούντιο αλλά στο όρος Suribachi στις 23 Φεβρουαρίου του 1945 αμέσως μόλις κατελήφθη από τους Αμερικανούς (και όχι μετά το τέλος της μάχης, ο οποία τελείωσε την 26η Μαρτίου). Κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης είχε υψωθεί μια σημαία αλλά ήταν μικρή και όχι ευδιάκριτη από τα πλοία ώστε να κατευθύνουν τα πυρά τους. Γι'αυτό μεταφέρθηκε μια μεγαλύτερη την ανύψωση της οποίας αποθανάτισαν τρεις φωτογράφοι (Rosenthal, Lowery και Campbell). Στην ιστορία έμεινε φυσικά του Rosenthal. Τα περί πλαστής είναι για γέλια φυσικά. Εκτός αν κάποιος είχε την απαίτηση οι φωτογράφοι να τραβάνε τις φωτογραφίες τους από την πρώτη γραμμή κατά τη διάρκεια της μάχης!!!

:bloodomen: Κατ'αρχάς να παρατηρήσω ότι πολεμικός ανταποκριτής λέγεται αυτός που τραβάει φωτογραφίες από τη μάχη, :splaaaats: έτσι γίνεται και σήμερα,και οι ενσωματωμένοι δημοσιογράφοι στο Ιράκ στην πρώτη γραμμή ήταν,και οι δημοσιογράφοι που δολοφονήθηκαν από τον ηρωικό αμερικανικό στρατό στο ξενοδοχείο Πάλεσταϊν,στην πρώτη γραμμή ήταν,αφού το ξενοδοχείο τους είχε χαρακτηριστεί στόχος από την πάντα γεμάτη σεβασμό στους κανόνες διεξαγωγής του πολέμου αμερικανική στρατιωτική και πολιτική ηγεσία.Λοιπόν.Για να δούμε.Η φώτο ήταν στημένη,την τράβηξαν καμιά 200 φορές,δεν είχε σχέση με το τι έγινε πραγματικά στη μάχη,αλλά δεν ήταν πλαστή.Σκέψου και να ήταν και αυθεντική δηλ.

Στο link που παραθέτω-και εσύ από τι βλέπω παραθέτεις την πηγή για τα λεγόμενά σου emnysta -λέει ότι είναι προϊόν στούντιο.Αλλά θα προτιμήσω την δική σου εκδοχή:οι ηρωικοί αμερικανοί G.I.Joes ύψωσαν ηρωικά την σημαία αφού φύγαν οι εχθροί κάτω από τις οδηγίες του φωτογράφου και δεν είναι πλαστή αφού είναι μια αυθεντικά σκηνοθετημένη φώτο σε φυσικούς χώρους. :splaaaats:

Για τον κο Beamer, διαβάστε αυτό [από τη σελίδα του Todd M. Beamer Foundation, Inc. (!!!!!!!),

:withstupid: Ρε Σαράντο,μάτια μου,εγώ το διάβασα το κείμενο,εσύ το διάβασες;Για όσους βαριούνται λέει πάνω κάτω ότι οι επιβάτες πήραν φοβισμένοι τις οικογένειες τους και ο φοβερός ηρωισμός του εν λόγω κυρίου ήταν που πήρε όλο αγωνία-όπως θα έκανε ο καθένας μας πιστεύω-την οκογενειά του και επικαλέστηκε το υπέρ παν όνομα.Ακόμα δεν υπάρχει απολύτως καμιά ένδειξη ότι οι επιβάτες την έπεσαν στους αεροπειρατές,εκτός από το ότι είχαν στους επιβάτες έναν τύπο 1.95 m,πρώην παίκτη αμερικάνικου ποδοσφάιρου που είχε δείρει κάποτε έναν τσαντάκια- emeleos προφανώς για τους αμερικανούς η παληκαριά πάει με το μπόι και τα κιλά,Σαράντο είσαι παλήκαρος ρε! emiloveyou -και κάποιον που ήξερε να οδηγάει αεροπλάνο.Άρα το συμπεράσμα είναι προφανές:έδειραν τους αεροπειρατές,κατέλαβαν ξανά το αεροπλάνο,αλλά κάτι-προφανώς έβαλαν το δακτυλό τους οι εξωγηίνοι-πήγε στραβά,αφού έπεσε το αεροπλάνο.Και όπως όλοι μας πιστεύω πλέον ότι ο ηρωσιμός των επιβατών της πτήσης είναι αυταπόδεικτος:μπορούσε να μην είναι ήρωες,αφού ήταν Αμερικανοί και οι άλλοι κακοί Άραβες;Νομίζω ότι κάθε καλοπροαίρετος άνθρωπος δεν χρειάζεται καμιά απόδειξη πλέον από όσες πολύ πειστικά προέβαλλαν οι φίλοι μας οι Αμερικανοί,που ποτέ και πουθενά,όπως τώρα,δεν μας τα έπρηξαν με ψεύτικους ήρωες.Τι κρίμα για αυτούς τους ανθρώπους που μετά από ένα άσχημο θάνατο έπρεπε να γίνουν ένα ακόμα άλλοθι για τα φρικιαστικά εγκλήματα πολέμου που ακολούθησαν από τις ΗΠΑ.

Τροποποιήθηκε από Nievsky
Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Προφανώς, δεν ισχυρίστηκα ότι ήταν ήρωες οι επιβάτες, όπως ο Μπους όταν μιλούσε μπροστά στη χήρα του τύπου.

Απλά επεσήμανα ότι μιλούσαν στα κινητά αβέρτα και έτσι ήξερε ο κόσμος τι γινόταν στο αεροπλάνο. Τέσπα, είναι άγνωστο αν τελικά προσπάθησαν να καταλάβουν το αεροπλάνο ή όχι, αλλά οι ενδείξεις που έχουμε πιστεύω συντείνουν προς τα κει... γιατί να έπεφτε στην ερημιά ειδάλλως; Άχρηστοι ήταν οι τρομοκράτες πιλότοι; :splaaaats:

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Πολεμούν γιατί ο πρόεδρος του ήθελε να κατέχει αυτός την εκμετάλλευση του ειρηνικού και όχι η Ιαπωνία(οποιαδήποτε άλλη ερμηνεία γιατί πολεμούσε η Αμερική με την Ιαπωνία ευπρόσδεκτη).

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Όπως οι περισσότεροι λαοί και οι Αμερικανοί έχουν γράψει σελίδες ένδοξης πολεμικής ιστορίας . ο πόλεμος της ανεξαρτησίας αποτέλεσε έμπνευση για ολόκληρο τον κόσμο και διεξήχθη με γενναιότητα και ιδιοφυή τακτική. πολύ γενναιότητα (μη καταγεγραμμένη διεθνώς) επέδειξαν Αμερικανοί και κατά τον εμφύλιο τους.

Απλά πιστεύω ότι πρέπει να αποκατασταθεί μια διαδεδομένη ιστορική παρεξήγηση. Η Νορμανδία είναι η μεγάλη αλλά όχι η σημαντική και ηρωική στιγμή της συμμετοχής των ΗΠΑ στον 2ο παγκόσμιο πόλεμο (η απόβαση των σύμμαχων και η καταστροφή της ήδη νικημένης Γερμανίας ήταν διαδικαστική.)

(αδιαμφισβήτητα σε ατομικό επίπεδο υπήρξαν ήρωες ή και ηρωικές μονάδες , αλλά αυτό ισχύει σε όλες τις μάχες και για όλες τις πλευρές)

Οι σημαντικές αμφίρροπες μάχες (turning points) του 2ου παγκοσμίου είναι 2

Stalingrad και Midway (!).(και σε ένα βαθμό το El alamein)

To Midway είναι η ιστορική, δύσκολη και αιματηρή νίκη-σταθμός των Αμερικανών.

Τροποποιήθηκε από Ptca
Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

  • 2 months later...

Παιδιά μου, τα πράγματα είναι απλά: ο καυγάς γίνεται για το πάπλωμα. Οι αμερικανοί πολεμήσαν αρχικά για την ανεξαρτησία τους, αλλά βασικά δεν ήθελαν να πληρώνουν φόρους στη μαμά Αγγλία. Αλλά έτσι κι αλλιώς δίκιο είχαν, γιατί τι φόρο να πληρώνεις άμα δεν εκπροσωπείσαι στο κοινοβούλιο? Άσε που τις πρώτες εχθροπραξίες οι άγγλοι τις άρχισαν. Τεσπα, οι αμερικανοί τότε ήταν και νεοσύστατο έθνος, είχαν και το ελαφρυντικό του πρότερου έντιμου βίου (αν εξαιρέσεις τις σφαγές των ιθαγενών...). Αλλά μετά απέκτησαν δύναμη και ξέφυγαν.

Στον α' παγκόσμιο πόλεμο η Αμερική μπήκε το 1917, αφού είχε αποσυρθεί η Ρωσία που είχε μόλις κάνει την επανάστασή της, για να δρέψει τους καρπούς της δόξας. Μ'άλλα λόγια η Ρωσία έκανε τη σαβουροδουλειά και η Αμερική πήρε όλη την δόξα. Μετά στο β' παγκόσμιο πόλεμο η Αμερική μπήκε για να μην αφήσει μόνο την κομμουνιστική Ρωσία να κυριαρχήσει. Επιπλέον και γιατί ο Χίτλερ είχε αποκτήσει τόση ισχύ, ώστε οι αμερικανοί είχαν αρχίσει να φοβούνται ότι θα χάσουν την πρωτοκαθεδρία από την Ευρώπη. Σκοτίστηκαν για τα εκατομμύρια που σφαγιάστηκαν στα στρατόπεδα συγκεντρώσεως.

Οι 2 πόλεμοι πάλι στο Ιράκ έγιναν για το πετρέλαιο, επειδή ο Σαντάμ αρνήθηκε να σκύψει το κεφάλι (και τον κώλο-μετά συγχωρήσεως) στους αμερικανούς. Ο δεύτερος μάλιστα και πιο πρόσφατος έγινε και γιατί οι Ιρακινοί συναλλάσσονταν βασικά με ευρώ και όχι με δολλάρια, κάτι που φυσικά δε συνέφερε τον Μπους.

Μην ακούω λοιπόν αηδίες περί τρομοκρατίας, γιατί όσο πιο βάναυση είναι η προσβολή και η πρόκληση φασαρίας σε ξένο έδαφος, τόσο πιο σκληρά θα είναι τα δικαιολογημένα αντίποινα. Ο όρος τρομοκρατία είναι ένας τεχνητός όρος που ανακαλύψανε οι αμερικανοί για να δικαιολογήσουν τις προβοκατόρικες ενέργειές τους.

Εγώ πάντως μια φορά μαζί τους δεν είμαι... :angry:

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Εγώ πάντως μια φορά μαζί τους δεν είμαι... :angry:

:P Το σκέφτηκες καλά;Μπορεί να έρθουν τα αμερικανά στρατά για να σε απελευθερώσουν και να φέρουν τη δημοκρατία στο σπίτι σου.

Υ.Γ.Μετά το τελευταίο γεγονός με τον βομβαρδισμό του γάμου από τους Αμερικανούς στο Ιράκ και τη δολοφονία 40 αμάχων ξέρουμε ότι ο γάμος βλάπτει σοβαρά την υγεία με αποδείξεις πλέον.

Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

emarup Όταν εγώ τα λέω εδώ και 25 χρόνια δε μ'ακούει κανείς..... :lol:
Link to comment
Μοιράσου σε άλλους δικτυακούς τόπους

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Επισκέπτης
Απάντησε σε αυτό το θέμα...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Δημιουργία νέας...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.